In short:

Don’t say “Toxic Masculinity”, it hurts men’s feelings. Say “Harmful Gender Expectations”
Don’t say “Patriarchy”, it hurts men’s feelings. Say “Systemic Gender Expectations”
Don’t say “Feminism”, it (sorta) hurts men’s feelings. Say “Gender Equality or Egalitarianism”

Edit: due to some justified criticism I want to clarify a few things here.

  1. “It hurts men’s feeling” is not the only reason why these things are bad.

  2. I shouldn’t have said “It hurts men’s feelings” because I don’t know all men. It probably only hurts the feelings of a small minority of men. I still maintain that this is justification enough to stop using these phrases.

  3. I get the sense, and I could be wrong, that people kinda don’t respect how damned important it is to not hurt men’s feelings. I presented my post in the way that I did to put empathy for men front and center. But to be fair, I’m not the best at the empathy thing. Still I’m a little disappointed by the response. Maybe a bit more emphasis on how justified the hurt feelings are would have helped?

  4. I changed the title from “Stop saying “Toxic Masculinity”, “Patriarchy”, and yes, even “Feminism”” to “People in the mainstream should stop saying “Toxic Masculinity”, “Patriarchy”, and yes, even “Feminism””. I wasn’t trying to tell the people of the magazine what they should be allowed to say or not say. I was trying to suggest that we change what is considered acceptable in polite discourse (aka the overtone window). Kinda like how it’s not so acceptable to say fireman anymore, you say firefighter instead. It shouldn’t be acceptable to say “feminism” when talking referring to a gender equality movement.

But let’s get into the details, starting with the easiest.

Toxic Masculinity

It doesn’t take a genius to recognize that saying that phrase seems to imply that masculinity is toxic. I understand that the true intent here is to talk about harmful gender expectations placed on men and the impact it has on the people who try to live up to these expectations.

Which is why it so ironic that men’s reaction to such loaded and negative terminology seems to be: “Hrmph, I’m a MAN and I won’t let people show that I’m bothered by something so trivial as terminology.”

Don’t say “Toxic Masculinity”, it hurts men’s feelings and that’s reason enough. Say “Harmful Gender Expectations”, that IS what you meant when you used the phrase right?

Patriarchy

The patriarchy is a complex system of, often oppressive, gender expectations. AKA systemic gender expectations.

The ones we tend to see most places is one that seems to have more men than women in positions of high authority.

Those well versed in gender theory understand that this is just one of many interconnected symptoms and is in no way the “root cause” of the situation. There is no root cause, it is a complex systemic problem.

But when you call it Patriarchy, that’s not how it’s perceived. It’s perceived as something that’s caused by men to benefit men and place them in power.

But it’s a systemic issue that harms both men and women in certain ways and benefits both men and women in other ways and often, it’s not the same people receiving the benefits as those who are harmed by it.

But the use of the gendered term Patriarchy naturally leads to gendered terminology for these otherwise symmetric phenomenon:

  • For things that harm women it’s “Misogyny”.
  • For things that harm men it’s “The patriarchy backfires on men”
  • For things that benefit men it’s “Misogyny, male privilege or oppression”
  • For things that benefit women “Benevolent Sexism”

Exposure to this kind of language, especially for men prone to anxiety can lead to undue internalized guilt.

Which again, because of harmful gender expectation, men by and large fail to complain about this problem and it goes unaddressed.

So here again, please stop saying “Patriarchy”, it hurts men’s feelings.

Feminism

That’s right. Even this one is problematic. Now I understand that feminism has great many different factions and that there isn’t one definition to rule it all.

There is some self-identified feminists who unapologetically advocate for female supremacy, openly hate men and wish to see them be oppressed. And if these people want to have the term “Feminism”, I say let them have it.

But for those who truly want to fight for gender equality, you can’t have it. It just doesn’t make any sense. It’s in the word Feminism. It’s a movement dedicated to women, not men. You cannot run an effective truly egalitarian movement under that banner.

At this point I can only speak for myself, because I’m shocked by how few men are bothered by this. But I cannot accept or identify with a purported gender egalitarian movement that failed before it said anything because it could not find a way to give itself a gender neutral name.

But here’s the thing. It’s literally taken me decades to understand this problem, as obvious as it may seem. But also sometimes I can be quite clueless too.

But all this to bring it back to this post’s mantra: while younger men may not be explicitly complaining about this particular issue with feminism. I’m sure they understand that something feels off.

So yes, please stop saying “Feminism”: it hurts men’s feelings.

Or more accurately it makes men feel uncomfortable enough to refuse to join your cause.

And NO, it’s not too much a bother. Men’s feelings are important too. As a society we’ve updated a ton of terminology to make sure that women feel welcome in all aspects of society. This is NOT too much to ask to help men feel welcome in the discussion for gender equality.

  • hotpotato138@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    I agree with you about toxic masculinity and patriarchy because those don’t exist. Feminism exists as an ideology. Many people identify as feminists so it’s okay to use feminism.

    • Dienervent@kbin.socialOP
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      1 year ago

      Why is it that practically everyone I interact with on kbin is basically an irony machine. Are you at least self aware of the irony. Or is it just something you do instinctively?

      One of my points is that all of these things are things that SHOULD bother you but men tend to downplay or refuse to let it bother them out of some sort of bravado.

      So saying that this doesn’t bother you makes it seem to me like you didn’t understand what I said or didn’t make it clear enough.

      If you disagree with my point that this is something that should bother you, then please explain why.

      Because if you’re not going to be constructively contributing to the conversation then why are you even saying anything?

      Edit: changed machismo to bravado. It’s more accurate.

      Also. PS:

      I change my mind, it’s not something that should bother you. You’re perfectly entitled to be bothered or not bothered by whatever it is you damn well please.

      But it is something that bothers many men. It is something that I believe many men are bothered by without being particularly self aware of. And insist that it is something that needs to be addressed to help society move forwards to more egalitarian outcomes and hopefully just generally more harmonious relationships between different people.

      • RandoCalrandian@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Have you ever considered it’s you who are wrong, and not all these men you keep throwing names and adjectives at when they don’t agree with you?

        Yes, saying “toxic masculinity” is sexist as fuck, and we should use a different term. Your projection of hurt feelings onto your audience is what makes your advice shit, tho. It’s wrong to use because it’s intentionally insulting and sexist, not because it makes men feel bad.

        “Patriarchy” we should absolutely keep talking about, because it’s a very popular brainwashing tool to convince people that all problems in the world are the fault of the class of men, and specifically not the fault of anyone not in the class of men, don’t you even dare think women might be at fault for something! – but seriously, it’s a psyop so that feminists have an excuse for their bigotry, and we should keep mocking the term to point that out.

        “Feminism” we should absolutely keep using, because “Say Gender equality or egalitarian” is for people who actual give a shit about equality, and that’s not feminists. This one your post mostly agrees with, but i don’t think you take it quite far enough. Letting most feminists “rebrand” into egalitarianism will just make egalitarianism the same sexist dumpster fire. It’s like suggesting most KKK members move to an “equality for all races” movement and pretending that stops the problem. It’s not that feminists needed to change their terminology, it’s that they needed to realize they were, are, and are actively saying they will continue to be misandric sexist pieces of shit in just about everything they say and do.


        As for why you get pushback saying these things, it’s very clearly because you presume to tell men what they are and should be feeling, which is the same bullshit gynocentric attitude that led men to be subject to this nonsense in the first place.