@o_o@programming.dev asked “why are folks so anti-capitalist?” not long ago. It got quite a few comments. But I noticed a trend: a lot of people there didn’t agree on the definition of “capitalism”.

And the lack of common definition was hobbling the entire discussion. So I wanted to ask a precursor question. One that needs to be asked before anybody can even start talking about whether capitalism is helpful or good or necessary.

Main Question

  • What is capitalism?
  • Since your answer above likely included the word “capital”, what is capital?
  • And either,
    • A) How does capitalism empower people to own what they produce? or, (if you believe the opposite,)
    • B) How does capitalism strip people of their control over what they produce?

Bonus Questions (mix and match or take them all or ignore them altogether)

  1. Say you are an individual who sells something you create. Are you a capitalist?
  2. If you are the above person, can you exist in both capitalist society and one in which private property has been abolished?
  3. Say you create and sell some product regularly (as above), but have more orders than you can fulfill alone. Is there any way to expand your operation and meet demand without using capitalist methods (such as hiring wage workers or selling your recipes / process to local franchisees for a cut of their proceeds, etc)?
  4. Is the distinction between a worker cooperative and a more traditional business important? Why is the distinction important?
    • OwenEverbinde@reddthat.comOP
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      1 year ago

      Sure. To me, capitalism is any system that supports ownership of any property – oil rigs, land, factories, assembly lines, burger machines, copyrights and patents, mines, farms, etc – that is used to collect the products of another person’s labor. (For example, when the oil rig worker is payed a wage, but the oil rig owner owns the oil that was pumped, that’s capitalism.)

      EDIT: Wolfhound pointed out that my definition ought to specify who is allowed to to control this property. And that’s true.

      Capitalism is any system that permits all people (or non-person entities) with sufficient wealth to own property – oil rigs, land, factories, assembly lines, burger machines, copyrights and patents, mines, farms, etc – that is used to collect the products of another person’s labor. (For example, when the oil rig worker is payed a wage, but the oil rig owner or oil rig corporation owns the oil that was pumped, that’s capitalism.)

      The property used in the above manner is called capital, or private property. The person using it is called a capitalist.

      As for whether it is conducive to workers controlling what they produce, my answer is that – by definition – capitalism allows someone else to control what workers produce. It does not guarantee a worker any power over what they produce, and in the majority of cases (where a worker must pay rent, health insurance, food, etc and cannot afford to start their own business or buy their own equipment) it actually pressures workers into situations where they do not control what they produce.

      • ImaginaryFox@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Too short Owen. Assignment is 1250 words minimum with proper MLA citation. Resubmit before the deadline.

        • OwenEverbinde@reddthat.comOP
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          1 year ago

          🤣 🤣

          Look, I promise: I was just annoyed at people talking past each other on the question @o_o@programming.dev asked. And I just wanted to ask the question in a way that might address the problems that o_o’s question ran into.

      • WolfhoundRO@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I really feel like this definition is fairly incomplete. All the traits you mentioned can also describe feudalism, but replacing “capitalist” with “noble”, which is sanctioned and invested by other nobles or the suzerain. You could say that capitalism is “any system that supports private ownership of private property that is used to collect the products of another person’s labor”. With the mention that the private ownership can be asserted by either a person or an organized group of persons, but both private entities

        • OwenEverbinde@reddthat.comOP
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          1 year ago

          Ah… good point. My description did nothing to distinguish capitalism from feudalism. There is necessity for some mention of who is allowed ownership of this form of property. (Or what is allowed ownership as is often the case.)

          As for the word private though: I wanted to avoid more terms I would need to define that might obscure my definition. Also I’m not even sure what distinguishes private ownership from other kinds of ownership. Or what makes a private entity.

          But thanks for the input. At some point I’ll edit my definition.

      • 1rre@discuss.tchncs.de
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        1 year ago

        Copyrights and patents
        Used to collect the products of another person’s labor

        If you ask me it’s the exact opposite… Copying someone else’s work with no benefit to them removes a big driver for innovation.

        This also only really applies with corporations - you could in theory have everyone be self-employed in a capitalist society

        • OwenEverbinde@reddthat.comOP
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          1 year ago

          Ideally, copyrights and patents would protect the small inventor and small musician. Unfortunately, wielding copyrights and patents in any useful way requires other forms of capital. (You have to have wealth in order to sue someone for infringement.)

          • 1rre@discuss.tchncs.de
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            1 year ago

            However that’s an issue with the legal system rather than anything else and could also exist without capitalism - it’s possible for the legal system to be dominated by any powerful entity from corporations to the state to unions depending on the political system, and if you don’t have enough sway within one of those powerful entities then tough luck

      • w2qw@aussie.zone
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        1 year ago

        that is used to collect the products of another person’s labor.

        This is only really true if they have a monopoly where it’s more difficult or impossible for others to compete. Otherwise if the labourer isn’t getting the full value of their labour they can go somewhere else.

        • OwenEverbinde@reddthat.comOP
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          1 year ago

          At what price – to drill and construct an oil rig for example – would you consider it so prohibitively expensive that “somewhere else” has a hard time existing?

          A million dollars? Five million dollars?

          Consider that the median bank balance in America is $5,300. That is to say, half of all Americans have less than $5,300 in the bank.

          What startup cost makes it difficult for others to compete?

          • w2qw@aussie.zone
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            1 year ago

            I made sure to say more difficult not just difficult. Building an oil rig is inherently difficult because you need many different types of labor with many different skill sets. As a practical matter it’s often easy for one organization to pay for this labor upfront but theoretically they could cooperate to build an oil rig and share in the returns.

            If you were going to mention the rights to extract oil then that’s a whole other probldm.

            • OwenEverbinde@reddthat.comOP
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              1 year ago

              Let’s say:

              • my bank account reads, “100 thousand”
              • it costs me $5 million to build an oil rig
              • your bank account reads, “$12 million”
              • it costs you to $10 million to build an oil rig
                • and there’s a reason: through corruption, backroom deals, and frivolous regulations, I have managed to raise your cost, but not mine

              You can still build one. I still can’t – in any reasonable way – poach whichever oil rig workers you choose to underpay. And this is true despite the fact that it’s technically easier for me to build an oil rig. The only advantage you need to be above consequences for inefficient practices… is for your opponents to be too poor to afford startup costs either way.

              No uneven playing field is necessary.

              theoretically they could cooperate to build an oil rig and share in the returns.

              United States tax dollars, in the form of DARPA grants, paid for the development of the internet. So there is precedent for extremely expensive operations to be successfully carried out under democratic control.

              Also, since oil deposits are a natural resource, one could argue government ought to be involved in their collection.

              • w2qw@aussie.zone
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                1 year ago

                You can still build one. I still can’t – in any reasonable way – poach whichever oil rig workers you choose to underpay.

                Lets breakdown what those costs are though.

                1. Some portion is paid to workers to construct the oil rig.
                2. Some may be paid to the government as part of a lease agreement generally to compensate the public for your exclusive use of the well.
                3. Some is paid to previous suppliers.

                3 is really a combination of 1 & 2 so lets exclude that. For 2 we could have a government that takes this money later. Often this is the case for a lot of these deals. A lease you can pay later and royalties are paid when you actually produce product. That really just leaves 3. If you were able to compel these workers to work for you without compensation then this "How does capitalism empower people to own what they produce?"wouldn’t be true so you’d have to offer some compensation but that compensation could be equity in the form of a workers cooperative.

                Is it more difficult for you to compete, sure but that’s like saying it’s more difficult for me to be an artist. I think we should be talking about where we are stepping on the scales for one or another.

                United States tax dollars, in the form of DARPA grants, paid for the development of the internet. So there is precedent for extremely expensive operations to be successfully carried out under democratic control

                You could government fund everything if you want. It’s usually quite beneficial in things you suggest which are early stage how it would be commercial viable is pretty uncertain. But there are trade offs.

                • In market economies you may need to raise the money with debt. If you are an oil producing economy and suddenly the oil price drops you may no longer be able to pay those debts. If you instead lease it to a private company which you then collect royalties or taxes from you don’t have to take that risk. You could fund it with taxes however that limits your growth if you are a smaller economy.
                • With the right incentives companies will compete if you have just a single nationalised producer where bureaucrats don’t the same level of incentive as owners they likely will run it less efficient. There is obviously the case though that often private companies push for regulations that limit competition and try to reduce their costs for externalities they impose on others.

                Also, since oil deposits are a natural resource, one could argue government ought to be involved in their collection.

                I think it’s correct to say government should be collecting revenue from the natural resource but I don’t think they need to specifically be the ones running it.

                I should clarify I think capitalism is great but doesn’t mean our implementation is perfect (and an example is privately owned land).

    • TheWelfareStore@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      That kind of defeats the purpose of the discourse, no? If OP defines capitalism, either straight from the dictionary or per their own definition, this thread is still going to argue about the semantics of it. Might as well start where it gets interesting imo

  • featured@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Capitalism is a socioeconomic system in which private individuals (capitalists) own the means of production and employ others to work them. The employer exploits the employed through wage labor, a system in which the surplus value of a laborer is taken as profit for the capitalist. Capitalism is often characterized by market relations and generalized commodity production, but there are always exceptions as in any system.

    • Xariphon@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      I think your first point is the most important: it’s a system in which those who own the means of production, those who benefit the most from production, produce nothing.

      • Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 year ago

        But they do have the means to produce, so without them the laborers cannot produce on the same level. It should be a mutual relationship that everyone involved should benefit. I think when others say that capitalism is bad, they’re referencing the corrupted form of capitalism we have today. A sort of pseudo slavery where corporations and those in power merely gives laborers just enough to survive but not enough to thrive.

        • Xariphon@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          That’s capitalism’s end goal, though, is slavery. Really it’s just feudalism with extra steps.

          • OwenEverbinde@reddthat.comOP
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            Wait! @Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com isn’t wrong. Also, I think we are miscommunicating with pro-capitalists.

            Granted, we both know capitalist propaganda labels basically everything positive about human interactions “capitalism” and then scaremongers about how “the left wants to take THIS away from you!” And that is the main source of our problems communicating with pro-capitalists.

            But some responsibility (maybe 20% of the responsibility?) lies with the fact that we choose to label “capital” the problem instead of… you know… the fact that our laws and customs favor a zero-sum employment contract between capital owners and workers where there can be only one winner?

            Of course the owner of more capital is always on the better side of this contract, (which is why we identified capital as the problem in the first place.) But labeling the problem “capital” makes it look like we don’t see any value to capital. Which isn’t true. Marx and Engels dedicated several paragraphs of their manifesto to explaining why the means of production should not be damaged, because the existence of capital leads to abundance, and the means of production is valuable. They didn’t want the means destroyed: they simply wanted it democratically owned by workers’ cooperatives and state socialism.

            The problem is employment contracts that are part of how our society treats the individual, private ownership of capital. Not the idea that capital is a valuable contribution to the production process and deserves reward.

  • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 year ago

    Hot take, but it’s mostly a buzzword at this point. It more productive to talk about wealth distribution and the structure of industry directly, and in which ways they can be good or bad.

  • arthur@lemmy.zip
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    What is capitalism?

    Capitalism is the way we currently organize our society, where a group of people (the ruling class) have ownership over the means of production and, using that, they take the labor value created by the working class. They use their power to control the society, despite democracy, and change its rules to their advantage.

    How capitalism strips people of their control over what they produce?

    Think about… A factory worker making smartphones. How many they do in a day? How much it does each will cost? How much of it the worker gets? The shareholders that owns the factory will get most of the value as profit, despite the fact that they did not work.

    1: No. You made something of value. Capitalists don’t create value.

    2: Private property is not the same as Ownership of the means of production. Communism don’t abolish private property, it abolish ownership of the means of production.

    3: You can expand your production by working with other people, as expected. In a communist society you would not be their “boss”, and would not get any value from their work for yourself, they will have it.

    4: Communism is a way to organize society without exploitation. They may be true for a cooperative, and we need more of that. But the implications of that for the whole society are deeper; democracy may reflect the needs of people better when there are no power disparity between member of the society.

  • TootSweet@latte.isnot.coffee
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    So, first off, let me say that if it’ll help us move toward something better than we have now, even if in my head I call it anarcho-communism, I’ll happily call it “capitalism.”

    For reference, there’s an author named Charles Eisenstein who in his book “Sacred Economics” advocates for taking steps that he intends to move us (the world, I guess) eventually to a gift-based economy without money or barter. And he calls it capitalism. With a straight face. Now, I don’t know if deep down in his heart he believes it actually qualifies as capitalism or if he’s calling it capitalism because he feels like his aims are more likely to be well received by pro-capitalists if he calls it “capitalism.”

    One can IMO go too far with that. Case in point: ecofascism. But I digress.

    On to the definition of capitalism. At least in my head, capitalism is characterized by:

    • The profit motive. The incentive to amass. (Typically money, but a barter-based system could well be the same in every way that matters.)
    • Quid pro quo. The whole system is based on it.
    • Private property. A particular set of rules for who has ownership rights over what.
    • The institution of employment.

    My answer didn’t include the word “capital”, so I’ll skip that second question.

    As to your third question, let me take exception with the question itself. I don’t believe “control over what you produce” is necesssarily a good thing per se. I believe in having something roughly like ownership rights over what one uses. But if one produce a surplus, I don’t believe they should be able to deprive others in need of said surplus.

    I think capitalism coerces people into producing surplus for others to sell for a profit that the producer (employee) doesn’t get a fair share in if that goes more to the spirit of your question.

    Bonus questions:

    1. I… don’t know or care? “Capitalist” can mean someone who supports the institution of capitalism. Or it can mean something like an owner of a company that employs people. I think plenty of people participate in capitalism (by selling things they make, by accepting an employment position, etc) out of necessity while disapproving of the system as a whole. Hell, I’m one of them. I’m not sure I understand why you ask.
    2. If I’m the person who sells things I make? Again, anticapitalists participate in capitalism because capitalism doesn’t give them a choice. Does that answer your question?
    3. The word “sell” here has some baggage I don’t like. I’m not for a system in which anybody “sells” anything. But to answer how one might expand an operation that produces things, worker cooperatives are probably the most obvious answer.
    4. Anyway, worker cooperatives are owned and run by the workers. Corporations are owned by shareholders and run by boards of directors. Worker cooperatives don’t have incentives and power to fuck their workers over. They do have incentive and power to take care of their workers.

    Maybe I should have read the first thread you referenced before answering these. Maybe it would have given more context. But hopefully this response gives you what you were looking for.

    • OwenEverbinde@reddthat.comOP
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      Okay, I absolutely love this response. All the way down.

      And no, you didn’t need to read o_o’s thread. My personal summary of it is that people who defined capitalism as, “anything that allows individuals control over the fruits of their labor” and people who defined capitalism as, “the alienation of workers from the fruits of their labor” were talking right past each other, not really understanding that the points they were making only supported their argument if you assumed their definitions were correct.

      For reference, there’s an author named Charles Eisenstein who in his book “Sacred Economics” advocates for taking steps that he intends to move us (the world, I guess) eventually to a gift-based economy without money or barter. And he calls it capitalism. With a straight face. Now, I don’t know if deep down in his heart he believes it actually qualifies as capitalism or if he’s calling it capitalism because he feels like his aims are more likely to be well received by pro-capitalists if he calls it “capitalism.”

      That is amusing. And yeah. That sounds very pragmatic. Or ignorant. Hard to tell which. But Eisenstein sounds like an interesting character. And like you said, if one needs to call their ideal system “capitalism” to get it implemented, then there’s no real crime.

      • the profit motive
      • quid pro quo
      • private property
      • the institution of employment

      Solid. I like these components.

      As to your third question, let me take exception with the question itself. I don’t believe “control over what you produce” is necesssarily a good thing per se. I believe in having something roughly like ownership rights over what one uses. But if one produce a surplus, I don’t believe they should be able to deprive others in need of said surplus.

      That fascinates me. I have always heard the struggle phrased essentially as, “you control your proceeds” vs “someone else controls your proceeds.” I didn’t realize people were advocating philosophies that bowed to the idea that “needs” should take priority over personal possessions. I’ll have to think about that one for a while.

      1. I… don’t know or care? “Capitalist” can mean someone who supports the institution of capitalism. Or it can mean something like an owner of a company that employs people. I think plenty of people participate in capitalism (by selling things they make, by accepting an employment position, etc) out of necessity while disapproving of the system as a whole. Hell, I’m one of them. I’m not sure I understand why you ask.

      This answer is wonderful. Again, I like that you acknowledge that the definitions are so varied that they aren’t even useful anymore.

      The main reason I asked? It was a leading question: my goal was that people’s answers would highlight the differences between their definitions. Because, if people could understand why their definitions were fundamentally different, maybe they could understand why they were talking past each other?

      I’m not sure if the effort will succeed. But I really liked and appreciated this answer.

      • TootSweet@latte.isnot.coffee
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        1 year ago

        I didn’t realize people were advocating philosophies that bowed to the idea that “needs” should take priority over personal possessions.

        Yeah, I tend to work Maslow’s work into my take on political systems. Maybe I should call myself an anarcho-Maslowist or something. Heh.

        I do really think that society is best that best fulfills people’s needs. And by “needs,” I mean something very like the way Maslow used the term. I’m not sure what higher purpose one could give for a society than the fulfillment of needs, really.

        (Mind you, I do know that there have been other psychologists who have built on Maslow’s work as well as some with different models of needs. I don’t necessarily mean to exclude those other definitions of needs. I don’t think it would serve us well to be dogmatic about one person’s take. But even if Maslow can be improved on, I do think the broad strokes of his take are on to something.)

        To be fair, just about any purpose a society might have can be shoehorned into the language of “needs” and that paradigm may be better for some things than others.

        Also, of course, more basic needs are more important. If you’re trying to improve things and you have one option that will address society’s unfulfilled need for basic sustinence and another option that will improve society’s access to aesthetic fulfillment, let’s fill people’s bellies first and put up murals later.

        Now, I do largely believe in “usership,” but the idea can definitely go too far. If in the revolution, Ted takes possession of a mansion and uses it daily for a private indoor jogging track, that’s fine with me so long as others are not deprived of some sufficiently basic need. Under a strict usership system, one could say that Ted uses all of that mansion daily and that there is no “surplus” of space there. And, again if others are not deprived, I have no issue with it. But if homelessness exists in that area, Ted’s claim to that mansion for his comparatively frivolous use of the structure is superceded by other people’s right to not have to live in a tent under a bridge.

        But this is all mostly my own take. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone else take quite the same stance on things. But then, I haven’t really read that much anarchist theory either. Just Conquest of Bread and /r/Anarchism, pretty much. (Oh, and some random guy on a first person shooter I used to play a lot that was my introduction to anarchism.)

        Edit: Oh! Also, there is the whole “to each according to need” thing. Maybe Marx would’ve been a fan of Maslow’s ideas. Who knows.

  • jmp242@sopuli.xyz
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    1 year ago

    Capitalism seems to be a system where people try to obtain ever larger amounts of some store of value, and use that store of value to enable that.

    I may have managed to avoid using capital above, but I think capital is a store of value that a person controls via ownership concepts.

    I think capitalism inherently enables people to earn what they produce, it seems like it’s almost a fundamental of it. The problem is just that people with more capital can coerce and rig the system against people with less capital. Therefore someone who already has capital gets more capital increase from a task than someone with less capital would get for the same task in many situations.

    Say you are an individual who sells something you create. Are you a capitalist? Yes If you are the above person, can you exist in both capitalist society and one in which private property has been abolished? Presumably no. If there’s no ownership or private property, how do you sell something? Can you sell something you don’t own or have permission from the owner to sell? Say you create and sell some product regularly (as above), but have more orders than you can fulfill alone. Is there any way to expand your operation and meet demand without using capitalist methods Probably not if you use a strict definition. The state, or other group could form to do so, but I’d argue it’s not you making that decision. Is the distinction between a worker cooperative and a more traditional business important? Define “important”. and Important to who?

    I’d say it’s meaningful because it is like democracy vs authoritarianism, but in terms of the actual real world pressures driving potentially similar behavior, I’m not sure how “important” it is. A worker cooperative might tend to treat employees better, might not choose some ways to compete that a traditional business would, and probably values other things than strictly make the most amount of profit for the investors. But does this rise to importance if the collective has to act in certain ways to remain competitive in the market? I would bet it depends on whether we’re talking from the perspective of the employees or customers or society or the market.

    • OwenEverbinde@reddthat.comOP
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      The problem is just that people with more capital can coerce and rig the system against people with less capital. Therefore someone who already has capital gets more capital increase from a task than someone with less capital would get for the same task in many situations.

      First of all, I love this description of the problem. I agree that this is the problem with a lot of societies. Foster Farms can wield their enormous capital and connections to underpay chicken farmers (and frankly, underpay them to a point where it might as well be considered theft). And that wielding of wealth is a huge problem.

      But would you be open to the idea that – to anti-capitalists, such as myself – the moment your store of wealth is used to coerce people with less wealth and earn more from that coerced person’s production of goods than the coerced person earns for themselves, that is the moment a system becomes capitalism? Whereas, before that point, it is simply a “market economy.”

      Would you be willing to entertain such a definition?

      • jmp242@sopuli.xyz
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        1 year ago

        I generally think a “market economy” == capitalism. Mostly because as far as I can tell, all capitalism requires is private ownership and abstracted stores of value. A market economy is already capitalism because human nature - as soon as someone can do bulk purchases, they’re going to try and get better prices, and I think many sellers would willingly give them a bulk discount. It doesn’t even start as coercive - but it sets you on the road to that, and so it’s a difference in scale and not kind IMHO.

        I also don’t think coercion is a requirement of capitalism. It’s something that I think will happen naturally, but you could still have capitalism with regulation reducing it / maybe preventing it. I’d argue that a lot of the problems in current capitalist societies are equally failures of the political system, or maybe a misunderstanding of humans such that large pluralities do not actually want to use their government to make life better for anyone or themselves, but instead to hurt an out-group.

  • lntl@lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 year ago

    Capitalism is an economic system founded in private ownership of land, natural resouces, goods, services, etc.

  • ℕ𝕖𝕞𝕠@slrpnk.net
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    1 year ago

    Capitalism is an economic system where capital is considered a valid input to the production process, worthy of renumeration. Contrast with some other systems where labor is the only valid input.

    Capital is material wealth used productively.

    Capitalism empowers ownership of produced good by laborers by funding new ventures where laborers can be more self-directed than if they were forced to labor under the direction of others. Capitalism erodes control from laborers by introducing a non-labor stake in the venture. Both are true.


    An artisan who sells what they produce is free to be a capitalist or not, the two are unrelated.

    Such a person cannot exist in a society without private property, as “selling” is not a valid concept in such a society. Artisans in general would still exist, though, and probably more abundantly.

    An artisan who has more work orders than she can fill alone can expand without the methods you describe. She can form a partnership with another artisan, and teach or otherwise share her methods of production, tools, and branding. This could be an equal partnership or something more like taking an apprentice.

    The distinction between worker coöps and other businesses is important, but it’s also important to recognize that coöps are a subset of businesses, not an opposing type of entity. Coöps have just as much ability to behave in a predatory manner towards consumers, and almost as much potential to seek self-perpetuation and growth at the expense of their environment. That they will be less predatory towards laborers is nice, but it’s not enough to make them “safe”.