Welcome to the trolley problem.
I always always hated that problem. It is so contrived. Have you seen trolleys? They are freaken slow and full of safeties. Also the workers would have locked out the line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas
Basically the plot of this story. It poses the issue of how much we value society over the individual, and if that is good or not. Would you want to live in a world that depended on the the torture of a single person. You then could extrapolate that out to societies in the real world, US and chattel slavery. the west and the use of sweat shop labor for cheap products, the Emirates and their use of migrants as indentured servants. Even tipped wages for servers in the USA, the gig economy, and things like medical residencies could be considered a minor version of Omelas. As humans, we often tolerate the abuse or exploitation of others for our own benefit, or even just out of ignorance and inaction.
A great story that illustrates this question really well. It is by Ursula K. Le Guin, written in 1973, if anyone is wondering.
It is a quick read. One of a handful of stories that I have gone back to over the decades.
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Like what happens in the anthropocene to pretty much all animals except dogs & cats lol
Star Trek Strange New Worlds recently did an interpretation of this story
https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-ones-who-stay-and-fight/
Someone made a response story of sorts, figure I might as well share it here
I mean, most Christians would say yes because that’s the entire premise of the crucifixion.
I came to say the same thing. This is exactly what Christianity believes.
But of course, it was Jesus who gave himself willingly.
If he was forced to do that, it would’ve been reprehensible because he was the only truly innocent person who ever lived.
No it’s not morally preferable. Fuck that world that requires human sacrifice.
I mean the “first world” is built entirely on the sacrifices of the rest of the world. People live in unimaginably horrible conditions so that we can consume and be free.
I agree. It would be practical and coldhearted, not moral.
It’s also a fake question because there is no situation where torturing someone makes the world a better place.
Just out of interest, what if we make it a (not-human) animal instead of a human? Or, what if we make it trillions of animals every year. What about a world that doesn’t require it but still includes mass amounts of animal sacrifice unnecessarily? That’s the world we’re in right now 😂
Most peoples empathy differs from human to animal.
But it shouldn’t. Our empathy with other humans all boils down to knowing their ability to suffer. And science today agrees, that most animals are able to suffer and feel pain just like us. We really should include them into our circle of moral consideration and thankfully more and more people already do
If that one innocent person agrees to it, I say yes. Otherwise, no.
If nobody volunteers, we all go down.
Then it becomes are you willing to torture innocents to save everyone else?
If they volunteer yes. But torture you sign up for isn’t torture; a key aspect of torture is its nonconsensual nature.
Do you mean ultimate badass Talenel’Elin , Herald of War?
He. Did. Not. Break.
First thought!
Username checks out. Lol.
An inherently flawed world maintaining its function through cannibalism will inevitably devour itself into nonexistence. Why prolong its suffering?
Has that happened? No really I am asking for evidence. We have had forms of slavery since our species began. It wasn’t like one time we had a slave 20,000 years ago. The world still basically works with humans using humans. We don’t have to like it, we should fight it, but the idea that you are stating that if we are bad once we lose everything doesn’t match with the facts that we have.
I am typing this while wearing clothing made by children on a phone made by slaves in China.
Is that person Rupert Murdoch? Then yes
Haha, innocent. He doesn’t really fit the description.
Shit you’re right
I’m still fine with sacrificing him. Volcano, vultures, doesn’t really matter. Some kicks to the balls won’t do harm as well. He needs to be removed from society.
He’s technically “innocent” of millions of deaths caused by his decades of misinformation.
Can we torture 10 deserving people instead of 1 innocent?
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Someone’s been looking too much into Procedure Montauk 110
Prepare for the
Metamemeticthreat to be quarantined and for this whole infection vector to be [REDACTED]
I think it has happened numerous times already under the same pretense.
I am not sure if we are saved or not.
Are you trying to make an arguement for Christianity?
Unfair to ask the question in the incomplete form… The tortured person is you. Now answer
Nope. That’s a world that’s not worth saving.
Is it really though? Injustices happen all the time here. I want to agree with you but I’m struggling to come up with good justifications for it. Can you explain your thinking a little bit?
So everyone including the innocent just ends?
Because regardless of the choice. Innocent people will die.
It’s how quickly you want that to happen I think is what we’re going after.
Is this voluntary? Is it random? Is the person truly innocent? Is this person known or will be remembered? Is it a child? Is the world aware?
I have a ton of questions that lean onto the “slow” side of things.
But I think it’s too easy to say “nope, just end it”.
It’s a fumbly one, eh?
I agree that in an existence with that decision on the line, we would have to question many things.
Does someone innocent have to die, or is someone lying about the rules of the decision to save themselves? Would people who expect to kill this person be willing to offer same thing themselves? If not, why can they really decide for someone else? Is the death actually necessary, and how? Will new religions form from this?
What happens if it fails? Will that person just be dead for no reason? Will their loved ones be cared for? Who would even qualify?
100%
There’s absolutely ground to wriggle on here. Maybe let’s try to make up a society where this is okay.
I would like to assume in this “perfectly ok to do this society” that the choice is fully open and known to all. As in all people in the society are subject to it. Like a complete random draw.
But then what about innocent people? I would define an innocent as a person who is sinless or hasn’t broken the law. Maybe if you try to do something evil you’re pardoned from this choice? That doesn’t seem right because everyone would do the least minor thing to be considered evil. And children or the neuro diverse might be left out on a huge disadvantage because how would they know what to do to be considered skippable.
Maybe it’s an external force working to destroy the planet. Someone has to be killed to stop it. So maybe innocent could just mean has no power over the process, no ability to affect it, no way to be skipped. If it’s seen that way, I would be kind of satisfied.
How often does this happen? Once a year? A decade? Every day? Eesh what a thought. What would society be like knowing that you might be randomly chosen to just end on a daily basis. It’d be like winning the anti-lottery.
If someone was chosen, in my model, they would be made known to the planet a while ahead of time, maybe 24 hours. And they would be given a huge life altering sum of money to do with however they please prior to being un-alived. Give it to their family, a charity, whatever.
Their name would be known as a hero of some sort, even if unwillingly so.
The death/torture can’t be painless, as the hypothetical implies so maybe there can be like a time limit here? Is this a long time torture thing? That sounds horrible.
Right now, if really feels like I’m trying to make my least favorite thing slightly palatable somehow.
Is this voluntary? Is it random? Is the person truly innocent? Is this person known or will be remembered? Is it a child? Is the world aware?
I just picture Cabin in the Woods.
Great movie, BTW. What a concept!
Which side did you fall onto, the people keeping the evil at bay, or the ones fighting to live even if it meant the end of the world?
I fell on the side of fighting to live and Marty was the best.
I’d just walk away from Omelas.
A great story that illustrates this question really well. It is by Ursula K. Le Guin, written in 1973, if anyone is wondering.
