Pretty straight question.

I see Lemm.ee is now the second most populated instance based on https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list, with 3634 monthly active users.

I also know that Lemmy devs said that

lemmy.ml is bigger than beehaw, and only costs 80 euros per month for a dedicated server.

https://lemmy.ml/comment/2372503

As lemmy.ml has 3561 monthly active users, should we consider that around 3,5k-4k users is the sweet spot for an instance population, and stop recommending the ones that reached that threshold?

  • o_oli@lemmy.worldEnglish
    27·
    1 year ago

    Imo admins have a responsibility to disable signups to their server if they feel they are unable to fund/crowdsource or lack the ability to expand capacity (lack of time or know-how).

    As long as server admins stick to the above it doesn’t matter if it costs €10 or €100000 a month really.

    Its impossible to say at which point is the burden too much, because every person has their own threshold and every server can have multiple admins responsible for it, or might have business backing it or whatever really.

    • thegreenguy@sopuli.xyz
      2·
      1 year ago

      Yeah, as long as we will still have people creating instances (for new people) this seems to be the way.

  • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
    19·
    1 year ago

    lemm.ee admin did setup crowdfunding option and the needed amount was filled quite fast, so i guess it is more about whether or not the admin of the instance have technical ability and will to upscale the solution with rising number of users.

    it might get different story once the normal users start surpassing the early adopters in numbers (the penetration of people willing to contribute might get gradually lower).

  • poVoq@slrpnk.net
    14·
    1 year ago

    That seems to be rather too large already.

    There are probably not many admins willing to pay 80 euro a month out of their own pocket for a hobby and donations are better considered to be “nice to have” and should preferrably not be essential to keep the server alive.

    • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
      91·
      1 year ago

      donations should absolutely be considered essential.

      it is relying on the admin paying out of their own pocket that is guaranteed way to hell ;)

      • poVoq@slrpnk.net
        31·
        1 year ago

        This is a very short-sighted view. Once you set up things to depend on a regular project related income (donations or otherwise), the entire project lives or dies with it.

        Even if donations right now are sufficient, sooner or later they will fall short and then the people running the service have no choice but to either close it down or try to find another source of income, such as advertisement or selling out to a company interested in the user data. The latter has already happened with such large Mastodon servers.

        If you want to ensure that the Fediverse stays a healthy, non-corporate and humans-first environment, then being able to run (small) servers out of the admin’s pocket is the only working solution. Of course it makes sense to try and find more than one admin and have all of them able and willing to cover expenses, but donations should always be just a “nice to have” on top of that.

        • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
          52·
          1 year ago

          is the only working solution

          that is total nonsense. these smaller instances do cost money as well. so either million people needs to collectively shell out money to run one big instance, or they have to collectively shell out money running million small instances. the latter will cost more money when you sum that up.

          so, if you want the fediverse to stay healthy, people have to pay for it, one way or the other. your economic perpetum mobile does not really work how you think it does.

          • poVoq@slrpnk.net
            22·
            1 year ago

            Yes, both costs money, but only one has a clear pathway for sustainability and one admin paying out of their pocket for a small instance of less than 1000 or so members is easily possible.

            And since most admins will rent a VPS in one of the larger cloud services like Hetzner, the economies of scale are the same or better than having a large instance needing dedicated hardware somewhere.

            Edit: and no. depending on a cloud host is not the same as directly running the instances by a corporation. Those cloud hosts are more like your ISP, i.e. infrastructure providers.

            Edit2: Also… one huge factor is labour costs of the admin. A small instance can be a hobby side project that only needs a few hours per month. A large instance is not and people will seriously start questioning why they are not being paid a proper salary for running a large instance sooner or later.

            • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
              31·
              1 year ago

              yeah, no.

              again, your “lot of small instances” scenario is more expensive than few big ones, because there is a lot of unneccesary overhead.

              that is not to say that there should be only big instances, but you really seem to think you have invented some perpetuum mobile, and let me assure you - you did not.

              if you have enough admins willing to run small instances and finance them out of their own pockets, these same people can just contribute money to some bigger instance instead.

              and vice versa - if you’d end up in scenario where you don’t have enough people to finance the big instance, why do you think these same people would be suddenly willing to finance the small ones AND add some admin work on top of the money? (which they may be lacking both time and skill to do)

              also this is totally academic discussion, you are just drafting catastrophic scenario for which you have no basis in reality. just look at the wiki and you will see that people will pay for thing they consider useful.

              • poVoq@slrpnk.net
                22·
                1 year ago

                You are the one that is far removed from reality and just talks as if this was some theoretical economic discussion with “rational actors optimizing for surplus value” 😅

                I am an instance admin of one of the oldest Lemmy instances and have been doing stuff like this for nearly 20 years now. I am not talking theoretically, but based on real examples that I have seen personally happening.

                • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
                  2·
                  1 year ago

                  I am an instance admin of one of the oldest Lemmy instances and have been doing stuff like this for nearly 20 years now. I am not talking theoretically, but based on real examples that I have seen personally happening.

                  cool. and how many people who weren’t willing to contribute few bucks, but were willing and able to start and maintain their own instance, have you seen? 🤣

    • Blaze (he/him)@sopuli.xyzOP
      31·
      1 year ago

      Definitely agree, and that’s why I think we can try to prevent that trend by recommending smaller instances to users looking to migrate

      • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
        24·
        1 year ago

        how about you leave that to people running the instances? i am sure they can make inform decisions without your advice ;)

        • Blaze (he/him)@sopuli.xyzOP
          31·
          1 year ago

          Well, people ask openly other people when gu instance to move to due to LW instability, if there’s a better scenario than another, we can discuss it together

  • willya@lemmyf.ukEnglish
    14·
    1 year ago

    From what I’ve seen on these larger instances, they’re taking in a lot of $$$ in donations.

  • wiki_me@lemmy.mlEnglish
    4·
    1 year ago

    You might get the same problem that exist in FOSS people won’t get paid and quality will decline (like heartbleed etc), Also you want to allow big communities without splitting them which is bad UX.

    You are basically asking people to work for free for you (no point in sugar coating it), and honestly if people want to volunteer there are more important goals , we should have full time people working on managing instance IMO .

    • Blaze (he/him)@sopuli.xyzOP
      2·
      1 year ago

      You are basically asking people to work for free for you

      No, the point I’m making is that it’s easier to have a 3k instance requiring 80€ donations from its member, who would feel closer to the rest of the members and their administration team, than a 21k instance requiring 560€ per month.

      To be honest, I also think that we should move away from the donations model to an open subscription model. 80€ per month for 3k users is 0,32€ per user, you can implement a system where users pay 0,5€ for their cost, and can even pay more and offer to cover the subscriptions costs for other users. That way you give a real sense of community among members, and allow the instance admins to have more financial stability.

  • rglullis@communick.news
    01·
    1 year ago

    It is not just the number of users, but also the number of communities and subscribers.

    I believe that an instance can reach 10k users and have a couple hundred communities without too many issues, i.e, you could run things on one well-tuned database, perhaps add master-slave replication and scale your webservers horizontally.

    I do have in my mind that if my instance ever gets to this size (fingers crossed), I will close registrations and only open again to replace churned customers.