I think there’s this myth of “the neurotypical”… It’s a generic point on a scale that represents the most significant overlap, not any specific person. I genuinely believe no one is “neurotypical”, rather some tend towards it and others further away. That’s the spectrum. Plus some people might be closer to NT with some things but much further away with others.

For example, I have a pretty good degree of focus, I remember things pretty well, but I struggle to organise my thoughts and can’t bear to touch other people or certain textures. I’m sure everyone is a bit like this. Some people more so, some people less.

And that isn’t to minimise that there are people out there who really struggle to fit into the “best fit” of Neurotypical-aimed social design.

So why the need to create a mythical group of “Neurotypical”? Is it a need to define ourselves in opposition? Is it to make ourselves feel more unique? Is it a perverse form of gatekeeping?

The upshot is, that until we move towards realising that individuals have individual needs and requirements we aren’t going to make substantial progress and describing (and prescribing) otherness only seeks to alienate folk that might otherwise help.

People aren’t neurotypical… Systems are. I think that’s what I meant to say.

ACTIVATE DENTAL PROTOCOL

thank you. we really really need more of this. thank you.

ND is the new introverted.

Only introverts think deeply, get anxious, or enjoy academic pursuits. Do you have a counterexample? Oh, well that person just doesn’t know they’re an introvert, so the pattern still holds!

Same with ND/NT. Nobody is neurotypical according to this definition because everyone has something they struggle with or are quirky about.

Then how do you explain that one Talking Heads song?

For me it is this. When I was married he didn’t understand when I would request reminders to go to the bathroom, shower, eat, do laundry. He laughed. He thought I had dementia.

Nope just adhd with a swiss cheese memory.

Jesus, that’s insane. Either I have 0 habits, or OP is right. Everything I do, I do “manually” , and have to put effort and thought into it.

Thanks for speaking to the other side, because that’s so hard to believe. I don’t know about everyone with ADHD, but it definitely seems to be a common shared experience. The only habits I do completely without thinking are a) putting my seatbelt on in the car, and b) picking my phone up like 100 times a day. Anything bigger, even something like eating, is something I have to will myself to do.

And when I’m trying to form a “habit,” like certain types of note taking or task planning at work, no matter how effective it is and how much I like it, I never manage to do it more than about 3 weeks before my brain just completely shuts off that pathway and it’s like I forget that process exists altogether.

If I don’t put my meds on my nightstand AND have a reminder on my phone, I will forget them most of the time. Daily activity, takes almost no brain power, and it still doesn’t trigger in my head as something I need to do unless I physically see it.

I’m not sure if it’s every ADHD person, but I have accidentally quit smoking.

If you can accidentally quit a physically addictive habit, things like brushing your teeth don’t stand a chance.

Trust me, our minds are equally blown by how your brain works. Like, what ? It’s automatic ? How does that even work? For me, automatic is things like clenching my teeth or flinching at a certain type of sound, but I wouldn’t call that a habit. For me, a habit is something I can’t stop the impulse for, like smoking. All daily practical functions are intentional or not at all. Even “routines” are just forcing yourself through the checklist, it’s never automatic. You’re like fucking robots I swear.

I was blown away when I first saw this meme. I had no idea habits were supposed to LITERALLY become automatic. When people would tell me “Do something every day until it becomes a habit” I thought they meant “Do something until you stop forgetting to do it” Not “do something until your body just takes over and autopilots through it and you never have to think about it again”. Now I really understand why productivity advice is so useless. They’re all designed to “hack a habit loop” and I have no habit loop.

It actually kinda pissed me off when I learned what it’s like for neurotypical people. I felt like I’ve been unfairly misled and then judged for being misled.

I am not every ADHD person, but this could have been written by me. I had NO IDEA that you could have something be so ingrained that you don’t think about it. Even if I develop a “routine” of doing something, it is NEVER automatic. I have to put mental effort, even if small, into every task or it won’t get done.

After reading this my definition of habit would be better termed routine. I develop a routine and I try to stick to it. Also I could have a great routine and it lasts for a month or so and then it’s just, I don’t know what else to call it but ‘gone’. It’s gone. That routine is gone.

I realized when I was 20 that I can’t form habits. I’ve tried my whole life, but everything I do is an active choice, which makes it difficult to do anything at all long term. Things get boring and repetitive and after a while they aren’t interesting enough for me to get my executive functioning to do them anymore. Most things that I do daily, like brush my teeth, are actually things I do out of fear of the consequences of not doing them.

When I worked as a CS rep and had to log into my phone every time I sat down, it was a conscious effort that required active management, every day, for four years. When I get up in the morning to take care of and feed my pets, it’s an active checklist, and while I have a routine of sorts, different parts get missed often, like turning on my coffee machine, opening windows to cool the house, or even turning lights on. I’ve been on a mission to automate as much as possible in my home because things like my fish die otherwise.

The only time I’ve ever experienced auto-pilot has been while driving. And frankly, that scares the hell out of me because I lose time when that happens and have no idea if I did anything dangerous (I’m reasonably sure not because it’s happened often with others in the car, but the feeling is still there).

Maybe? Once I get started at something, I can zone out and not consciously think about it, but even getting ready for work, is a different adventure every day.

Sometimes I jump up, get ready, and I leave early, and on the other 24 work days of the month, I’m distracted by the laundry that didn’t get in the dryer, trying to find my keys, reading an article that’s much longer than I thought, and my cats.

I know what I need to do and I go through the checklist, but I wouldn’t call any of it automatic.

What would you consider a habit? I’m honestly very curious. I’m trying to think what things could be done with no thoughr. My brain just doesn’t work that way.

Wow. I honestly thought I was just lazy. Thank you for sharing. Everything other than sleep requires energy and effort. I wish I knew before I was in my 40s that I had ADHD!

😐

The OP is just using some wildly different definition of habits than everyone uses. No one has a “habit of doing yearly taxes” lol.

I can daydream through some actions, but it’s rare, and I fuck up whatever I’m doing. This is because I’m splitting my attention and not actually following a habit.

Starting any activity, including brushing my teeth, is always a conscious choice. I cannot “sleepwalk” into the bathroom to start my day.

A story here. I was in a relationship years ago, every morning this person would wake up and slap the button on their alarm. If they woke up before the alarm, or if the alarm failed, they would still reach over and slap the button. It was a habit.

I cannot develop habits like that. But I’m also not tripped up by habits. There’s no “walk down the hall and automatically turn left”.

The only upside to my particular situation is that I’ve never been hyperactive. Attention deficit, but no hyperactivity. It allows me to have at least some discipline in my day. But that has to be planned out and actively adhered to. It’s a constant struggle, but not as bad as some people I’ve known over the years.

Conversely, I have been considered to be neurotypical all of my life, though I do have a lot of other issues (chronic illnesses) so I wouldn’t rule out it being missed because of those ending up taking up all of the “bandwidth” so to speak - and I can think of very few daily habits that I have off the top of my head. Or, they’re cloaked in a way that I don’t “feel” they are habits, I’ll try to explain that a bit better:

Most things that I do, it almost feels like there’s an explicit direct cause -> effect correlation as to why. I suck at remembering to brush my teeth. But showering? I do so because I hate when there is that feeling of my legs running against each other in bed and there’s an almost sticky (?) like feeling.

And I’m reminded of that feeling because unfortunately for me, laying in bed isn’t only a thing I do during bedtime and occasional certain “activities with others” which is when they say is the only time of the day you should be in bed. I’ll get the aforementioned feeling and go “I need to take a shower before I plan to actually sleep”.

Or sleeping doesn’t tend to be a habit that I have in terms of going to bed at a specific time of day/night, I do so because I feel the amount of energy I have is too low for me to do anything more productive in the day (or to regain the energy by having say a meal). Exception of course is if I have an early appointment the next day that I know is going to require me to need some amount of rest for, and even then actually falling asleep is a struggle.

Or speaking of meals, I don’t stick with a explicit “three meals of day” plan - I usually skip breakfast and only have (maybe) lunch and dinner. I’ll just have something to eat when I directly feel hunger and realize I haven’t eaten in X amount of time. I’ll have a couple of light snacks here and there to bridge the gap if I need to. This one though, I feel is more or less related to how my GI condition plays a part in my own internal risk vs reward scenario.

I also don’t necessarily feel what others/my friends might describe as an almost instinctive desire to check social media whenever I wake up - I run the Lemmy instance I’m on so of course I do check to make sure it’s still running, and this morning in particular I didn’t have anything else that needed immediate doing, and came across this post in “All”.

I use reminders on my phone to make sure I take my medications at an appropriate time since my sleep schedule is not consistent enough for me to just always take it when I wake up / before I go to sleep (I’ve been told that some of the ones I’m on work best if you take them at roighly a consistent time).

I work from home and clock in on time because I’m always looking at the time when I know it’s around the corner, but I still have alarms and calendar events set to nudge me as well however.

I do my laundry when I go to take a shower and realize I have fewer choices of clean clothes to pick from, and set a reminder for the next day to do so. Similarly, I order more groceries when I have fewer choices of food to pick from (which thankfully doesn’t involve running loud machines that will wake up others, so I can do that immediately rather than deferring it to the next day).

I charge my phone and my watch when I get a notification that they’re low on batteries, not as part of a going-to-bed-ritual (and this certainly has bitten me on plenty of occasions).

I guess a better way to describe it all is that pretty much everything I do is “reactionary”. I do everything as the need arises, nothing (well, off the top of my head) is really automatic in the same way I see from others. Most of the time I can tell you what prompted me to do something.

I will say that I have what I (along with my psychiatrist and therapist) can only describe as “rolling chronic depression”, but even when it affects me the least, this doesn’t change.

It’s very common among autistic people and neurodivergent people in general, it’s called executive dysfunction. Essentially your brain has trouble both making and initiating plans. Every time I brush my teeth I have to remember to do it (this is not automatic, all my toothbrush stuff is set up as a visual cue any time I’m near the sink), focus on my task as I go to the bathroom so I don’t forget why I went there, remember to take my medicine first so that I don’t have to swallow them after brushing my teeth, floss, and brush.

The last two parts sound very simple (and they are, which is why this is so frustrating for many people), but sometimes I will stand in front of the bathroom sink for 5 or 10 minutes, knowing I need to brush my teeth, WANTING to brush my teeth, but it’s like whatever ‘go juice’ neurotypical people have a limitless supply of is just limited for me. Finally after standing there and psyching myself up I can do it, but it does take legitimate effort to initiate the process even if I follow through on all the parts smoothly. I couldn’t tell you exactly why this happens even though I can obviously recognize that it is happening, I kind of suspect it has to do with wonky sensory integration problems (common in ADHD and autistic people).

It’s really not as extreme as this guy implies. I guarantee you he has habits he’s not mentioning, it’s just that adhd have more of a tendency to forget them because we’ll get distracted by something else. I think about brushing my teeth, yes, but once I get started I day dream through it. I’m diagnosed ADHD and medicated.

Yeah the “meat suit” comment makes me think some kind of dysmorphia or something , that’s friggin weird man. Our meat suits are how we experience the universe and they profoundly impact our state of mind and being. To deny it demonstrates a very odd disconnect from reality.

I actually do have a habit of brushing my teeth. It’s part of my morning routine, which I do in the exact same order, every day. But, I’m autistic (I was diagnosed as a teen in the 80s). I’m one of those persons that has a very exact routine, and get really upset when my routine gets interrupted.

But, I do agree with you that some of those symptoms seem more indicative of depression than ADHD.

They weren’t claiming that people had a habit for paying taxes in general but that because nothing else is a habit they lack the energy to do the things that other people already consider draining when they had to spend so much on things that come naturally and in a way for free to others.

I would argue that brushing your teeth certainly seems to be habitual for most people. It’s something they’d do if they went through the bathroom routine in the morning while effectively still asleep. This person is saying that if they don’t effectively stand in the bathroom and look at the brush and decide “I will now brush my teeth.” they won’t do it, where someone else had grabbed the brush while thinking about what they need to get done later in the day.

Depression on the other hand would more likely manifest in a disregard for the necessity of the activity. This person says they do brush their teeth, they want to brush their teeth and they are ready to spend their existing energy on it.

A depressed person often would not be convinced that it matters, nor that they could even make themselves do it if they felt like they had to. Though naturally depression is expressed in many ways, as is any type of neurodivergence. It’s hard to put strong labels on these things. Nonetheless it seems sensible to differentiate on these things as most neurodivergence is simply a set of untypical phenomena and behaviour that have collected up enough to start becoming notable.

A person considered completely normal could suffer from the same but simply manage well enough for it to never stick out. No one is entirely normal.

No, neurotypical people have to think about actions before we take them. We aren’t robots. I don’t automatically get up from the couch, make dinner, and then eat it without thinking about it.

We get distracted and forget things, too. I went to the coffee shop the other day and realized I left my wallet at home.

My brother has extreme ADHD, and it’s much harder for him to manage everyday things. He might hyper focus on something and forget to eat all day, etc, but we both have to consciously do tasks just the same.

I was about to ask also shit blinking and breathing

I day dream so much I’m arguably not present

No, neurotypicals don’t just automatically go exercise. Its a choice they make.

I think with ADHD people things that end up taking very little thinking energy for non ADHD people, take the same amount of energy if not more, all the time, which is exhausting. I believe it is easy to take that for granted if you’re not having to expend the energy constantly.

Yeah this. I don’t automatically do things without thinking.

I like to make a cup of coffee each morning. It’s a habit. I don’t really spend time thinking about whether I’m going to do it first thing each morning because it’s so deeply ingrained - of course I will want to do that tomorrow when I wake up. I’ve performed this ritual so many times that I do know all the steps (although I do occasionally fuck it up).

However, I’m not going through this process like an automaton free of thought - somewhere between the bed and the kitchen there’s still a decision that I’m going to make a coffee. Some mornings I pee before coffee, some mornings it’s after - there are decisions being made.

So you’re saying if you didn’t have bad habits, you’d have no habits at all. I’ll see myself out.

I so relate to this. I listen to audiobooks or podcasts all the time because it keeps my brain partially occupied. Forgetting to take meds is a huge issue for me. I’m asthmatic and need to take an inhaler twice a day. I’ve been using an inhaler for 35 years and I still can’t remember regulary. I’m broken.

And at the same time think about that time someone was mean to you 8 years ago

On the surface, I probably look like the person you’re describing, but no one knew I had an ADHD diagnosis that went ignored in childhood. No one knew how much I was masking every day. It’s harder now because I have to make my own meals, clean my house, etc. All the things I didn’t have to do as a kid. I got to learn, which I loved (my special interest is research) and do various activities I enjoyed, even if it was exhausting. Now, I’m stuck doing all the things I was never taught by my family, with no structure, just trying to survive. Of course it’s harder than when I was a kid. Those memes help me feel valid and seen, something my family were never willing to do, but at least now I have friends that get it.

There’s so much trauma that happens from neurodivergence being ignored in childhood, and that takes time to process. I spend a lot of my days crying over all the times I wasn’t allowed to cry growing up, processing things in therapy, etc. I literally can’t force myself to enjoy life without first having the needed tools. It’s sad that I can’t do what I used to, but I’m slowly getting there. Kindness and patience are what are needed most, when that’s not something I was given as a child.

All this to say, you never know what’s below the surface.

ADHD and depression aren’t mutually exclusive. What you and I might struggle with on a Tuesday might be the last straw for another person.

Most people in real life who know me have almost no clue that I’m diagnosed with ADHD. I’m similar to the other person who responded to you, in the sense that no one bothered to teach me the coping skills I needed when I was younger. I’ll be honest with you, people’s attitudes towards it led me down a pretty dark path. I got fed up with random people assuming that they knew more about my diagnosis than my doctor did. I got tired of listening to people who had never even been around someone with ADHD tell me that I “wasn’t trying hard enough” or that I “didn’t try their family cure”. So, nearly no one knows anymore. It can be isolating.

I could have used my experiences as an excuse to be a judgemental, angry person, but I decided that I was better than that. Instead, now I try to help others in my life with the same or similar conditions. Sometimes, just being a little more emotionally open with people who are struggling can do wonders for them.

If you were having the worst time of your life, you probably wouldn’t want to listen to random people who are grumpy with you, right? You’re probably going to go for the people who will actually hear what you have to say, even if they can’t offer an instant fix.

What I’m getting at, is sometimes people just want to be heard. They aren’t necessarily looking for someone to tell them what they’re doing wrong. Sometimes they’re just looking for “oh man, I have that problem too!” or a “that sucks, I’m sorry to hear that”. Mental health is easier when you don’t feel alone.

If I don’t feel up to the task, I just scroll. Who am I to tell someone I don’t know that they aren’t trying hard enough? That’s up to that person, the people who love them, and their doctor, imo.

For the rare people who do use it as an excuse, you kind of have to wonder what else might be going on in their head. A lot of people are struggling. Please remember that correlation isn’t always causation. Some people will milk everything that they can to get by easier, so it’s not ADHD specific. For example, people like “Frank” from the show “Shameless”.

Yeah. The neurodivergent typically think that living like a robot is the solution to their problems. Everything needs to be in its place, or everything is wrong.

Executive dysfunction is a symptom of lots of issues, you might well be neurodivergent to some degree. For me it’s Executive dysfunction. Time blindness. and a degree of face blindness. All of these things are super disruptive to my life.

It’s the same for 99.999% of people. There ain’t a person on the planet that exercises automatically lol. “Oh geeze I didn’t even realize I just ran those 10 miles it’s just such a habit I didn’t even think about it.”

Sure, there are certain tiny things that you form a habit with like maybe saying “you too” any time somebody says for you to “have a nice ___” which explains why sooo many people have that embarrassing moment when like a waiter drops food on your table and is like “enjoy your meal” and you say “thanks, you too!” Something like that is this person’s version of a habit.

But other things like brushing your teeth or cooking dinner or exercising or picking up your kids from school or something isn’t an automatic action the way it’s described here for almost everyone. I’m sure there’s some huge outliers out there that swear they do all these things completely unconsciously or whatever but I’d argue they are an outrageously small minority.

I think this is a combination of conflating multiple things into one generic definition of what a habit is, and then attributing that trait to the general public unanimously.

It seems that this aligns best to my experience. Habits encourage you to do something and it kind of becomes easier - but not automatic. Definitely never automatic. E.g. with teeth brushing - I will not automatically brush if I am not at home. It may also be difficult if I accidentally fall asleep on the couch…

it doesn’t get easier. you just get better at handling hard stuff

Now let me quote OP

It never gets easier, just more familiar

It does get easier and ya’ll are explaining how. Ya’ll should take a philosophy class because everyone is saying the same thing using slightly different* words.

Good post, but what was she doing regularly that made her feel like a threat to you, if you don’t mind my asking? Thanks for sharing all this. I’m trying to ascertain my own mental state and it is all overwhelming.