Nuance? Huh? Naw, we should either rework words to fit our understandings of etymology or use any form of language we have access to to try and communicate in English… right?
Oh, I don’t speak British Academic Scientific International and Commercial English, though I’m pretty sure I could understand it, maybe that’s the issue?
I think we are getting lost.
What do you mean by prescriptivism?
I am using threadiverse’s grammar-authoritarianism as Q.E.D. that threadiverse, and it’s usage of BASIC is prescriptvist. While you and I vary our use of English dialects, & can communicate efficiently, threadiverse refuses to budge, as most are indoctrinated, and do not want to engage in other Yīngyǔ dialects.
tis why I propose sitelen pona earlier, because threadie hates nuance. (not us)
TL;DR: fuck everyone’s grammar authoritarianism. Language exists to communicate: successful, natural communication is correct language use, regardless of grammar rules.
Well, my linguistic work is completely unrelated to the fediverse, so my self identification as a descriptivist is also totally independent of any conventions here. I don’t really care what others use, and if somehow my instance were to insist that I communicate exclusively in Basic English, I would ignore it and/or switch instances, depending on how reasonably they presented the case to use only Basic English. If the whole fediverse banded together to enforce that, I’d be very surprised that all of the non-anglophone instances agreed (especially the francophone / Zangendeutsch speaking ones, can you imagine?) and ignore it unless and until it became obvious that I was hampering communication and fucking the vibe up for people.
By descriptivism, I mean that I’m interested in grammar as it is (successfully, for communication purposes) used, not the rules listed in a grammar book. My professional focus is on the transmission of grammar to adult second and foreign language learners, which is why I jump to grammar as an example, but spelling, word choice, or other aspects of language can certainly also be approached from a descriptivist perspective (accepting “ur” for “your/you’re“ and responding to the question “can I go to the bathroom?” without insisting that the asker say “may I go to the bathroom?” would be examples of descriptivist approaches in those categories).
The most common comparison to descriptivism is prescriptivism, which leads you to sentences like “that is something, up with which I will not put.” There’s also, I guess, mixing elements of multiple together and hoping that it will work, but I wouldn’t consider it a lect if it’s not a system that can be used to accurately and consistently communicate with others… how many others is a very interesting question that we could discuss for hours, but it’s not my area.
I am personally very interested in
grammar (obviously) and etymology, but I find the exclusion of dialects that are perfectly understandable to most local English speakers or insistence on following arcane rules, especially in informal situations, pretty fucked up, to be honest.
Of course if you’re from Glasgow talking to someone from Baton Rouge, one or both of you may need to tailor your speech to make communication work, but that’s a momentary adjustment and doesn’t imply that either speaker is wrong or making errors in their speech. My native dialect pronounces “internet” without any [t]: the first is completely elided and the second is replaced by a glottal stop. I’m not forgetting to say the t or mixing up the word, I’m speaking in the way that people around where I grew up do. When I’m speaking formally (as in, giving a lecture, not just talking to the doctor or anything), I’ll pronounce the first t, and if I’m speaking on the phone or with someone from a very different place, I’ll pronounce both, but those pronunciations are not more correct in my opinion, just more widely understood.
my instance were to insist that I communicate exclusively in Basic English, I would ignore it and/or switch instances,
Make an alt here then sib. .world is one of those AmeEigoAuth grammarian instances. If you don’t follow their gweiloyu, they mark all you posts as «Spam» and ban you.
responding to the question “can I go to the bathroom?” without insisting that the asker say “may I go to the bathroom?” would be examples of descriptivist approaches in those categories).
ic ic.
but those pronunciations are not more correct in my opinion, just more widely understood.
💮
We’ll probably agree in a lot of things too. I got extreme slack from threadie for calling language a tool, especially when endangered linguists decide to collectively end it. It felt like faux-concern, or how gen Z calls it now “concerned trolling.” If they didn’t want the language to die, they wouldn’t have let it rot, or Rosetta stone graph it. Language is only as good as people use it. Conlang et al…
I guess I’m currently in the ignoring it phase then, given that this is the first I’m hearing of it. Quokk is on my list of next instances, but ideally I’m holding out for a German language instance that accepts criticism of Israel (I can dream). If I get banned from world before that happens, I’ll check quokk out. My main concern about it has been time zones, because I get stressed out when I feel like I should have responded more quickly - is most of the traffic in line with Australian times?
I’ve got accounts on a bunch of instances though, and while I do absolutely get the criticisms of .world, I just don’t use it for my more radical ideas; it’s mostly the memes instance for me (I definitely do check up on the memes I get on my .ml/beehaw frontpage, but I find them too depressing/aware to be my main source of memes).
faux-concern
Pragmatically, I’ll grant them that moderation and administration are voluntary positions, and if they can’t find any volunteers who speak a given language, it’s near impossible to moderate posts and comments in that language, and if user X insists user Y is being abusive, it can be incredibly difficult to determine if it’s actually the case, and then you run the risk of either ignoring the abuse of user X or enabling X’s abuse of user Y through the report button.
That said, .world is big enough that if smaller (international) instances can moderate in a given language, they should be able to do the same.
but ideally I’m holding out for a German language instance that accepts criticism of Israel (I can dream)
Def. create the community here then. Quokk.au was forked for anti-genocide & anti-apartheid praxis. We were there when .world was defending Zionism. When they merged into Zion camp, many users emigrated.
time zones, because I get stressed out when I feel like I should have responded more quickly
don’t be. threadiverse as a whole is very understanding that everyone is different, and can only allot so much time to engaging with others. Everyone here that I am aware of treats threadie like email: “we will respond when its convenient.”
is most of the traffic in line with Australian times?
originally. I slowly turning to Ame times, then European. It all depends on syndicates.
moderation and administration are voluntary positions
not in piefed, .ml, and FHF😅. They have paid moderation. pylova, our fork of piefed, is not financially independent to hire moderation at the moment, but we would appreciate the mutual aid if viable.
Yeah, I strongly disagree with .world’s (and feddit.org’s) views on Zionism, but I just compartmentalize my usage based on my account instance. I’m also personally against the death penalty, which seems to make me pretty unremarkable for most .world mods, even though I’m definitely not against hoping some people die (it’s sadly actually too long a list to make here, but it includes multiple whole professions).
not in piefed, .ml, and FHF😅. They have paid moderation.
Huh, TIL. Glück im Unglück, I’m too poor to have ever sent them or sadly you guys money.
Nuance? Huh? Naw, we should either rework words to fit our understandings of etymology or use any form of language we have access to to try and communicate in English… right?
English is still a prescriptivist language.
Glad we don’t enforce it in threadie… right?
Oh, I don’t speak British Academic Scientific International and Commercial English, though I’m pretty sure I could understand it, maybe that’s the issue?
I think we are getting lost.
What do you mean by prescriptivism?
I am using threadiverse’s grammar-authoritarianism as Q.E.D. that threadiverse, and it’s usage of BASIC is prescriptvist. While you and I vary our use of English dialects, & can communicate efficiently, threadiverse refuses to budge, as most are indoctrinated, and do not want to engage in other Yīngyǔ dialects.
tis why I propose sitelen pona earlier, because threadie hates nuance. (not us)
TL;DR: fuck everyone’s grammar authoritarianism. Language exists to communicate: successful, natural communication is correct language use, regardless of grammar rules.
Well, my linguistic work is completely unrelated to the fediverse, so my self identification as a descriptivist is also totally independent of any conventions here. I don’t really care what others use, and if somehow my instance were to insist that I communicate exclusively in Basic English, I would ignore it and/or switch instances, depending on how reasonably they presented the case to use only Basic English. If the whole fediverse banded together to enforce that, I’d be very surprised that all of the non-anglophone instances agreed (especially the francophone / Zangendeutsch speaking ones, can you imagine?) and ignore it unless and until it became obvious that I was hampering communication and fucking the vibe up for people.
By descriptivism, I mean that I’m interested in grammar as it is (successfully, for communication purposes) used, not the rules listed in a grammar book. My professional focus is on the transmission of grammar to adult second and foreign language learners, which is why I jump to grammar as an example, but spelling, word choice, or other aspects of language can certainly also be approached from a descriptivist perspective (accepting “ur” for “your/you’re“ and responding to the question “can I go to the bathroom?” without insisting that the asker say “may I go to the bathroom?” would be examples of descriptivist approaches in those categories).
The most common comparison to descriptivism is prescriptivism, which leads you to sentences like “that is something, up with which I will not put.” There’s also, I guess, mixing elements of multiple together and hoping that it will work, but I wouldn’t consider it a lect if it’s not a system that can be used to accurately and consistently communicate with others… how many others is a very interesting question that we could discuss for hours, but it’s not my area.
I am personally very interested in grammar (obviously) and etymology, but I find the exclusion of dialects that are perfectly understandable to most local English speakers or insistence on following arcane rules, especially in informal situations, pretty fucked up, to be honest.
Of course if you’re from Glasgow talking to someone from Baton Rouge, one or both of you may need to tailor your speech to make communication work, but that’s a momentary adjustment and doesn’t imply that either speaker is wrong or making errors in their speech. My native dialect pronounces “internet” without any [t]: the first is completely elided and the second is replaced by a glottal stop. I’m not forgetting to say the t or mixing up the word, I’m speaking in the way that people around where I grew up do. When I’m speaking formally (as in, giving a lecture, not just talking to the doctor or anything), I’ll pronounce the first t, and if I’m speaking on the phone or with someone from a very different place, I’ll pronounce both, but those pronunciations are not more correct in my opinion, just more widely understood.
🤝🤝🤝🤝
Make an alt here then sib.
.worldis one of those AmeEigoAuth grammarian instances. If you don’t follow their gweiloyu, they mark all you posts as «Spam» and ban you.ic ic.
💮
We’ll probably agree in a lot of things too. I got extreme slack from threadie for calling language a tool, especially when endangered linguists decide to collectively end it. It felt like faux-concern, or how gen Z calls it now “concerned trolling.” If they didn’t want the language to die, they wouldn’t have let it rot, or Rosetta stone graph it. Language is only as good as people use it. Conlang et al…
I guess I’m currently in the ignoring it phase then, given that this is the first I’m hearing of it. Quokk is on my list of next instances, but ideally I’m holding out for a German language instance that accepts criticism of Israel (I can dream). If I get banned from world before that happens, I’ll check quokk out. My main concern about it has been time zones, because I get stressed out when I feel like I should have responded more quickly - is most of the traffic in line with Australian times?
I’ve got accounts on a bunch of instances though, and while I do absolutely get the criticisms of .world, I just don’t use it for my more radical ideas; it’s mostly the memes instance for me (I definitely do check up on the memes I get on my .ml/beehaw frontpage, but I find them too depressing/aware to be my main source of memes).
Pragmatically, I’ll grant them that moderation and administration are voluntary positions, and if they can’t find any volunteers who speak a given language, it’s near impossible to moderate posts and comments in that language, and if user X insists user Y is being abusive, it can be incredibly difficult to determine if it’s actually the case, and then you run the risk of either ignoring the abuse of user X or enabling X’s abuse of user Y through the report button.
That said, .world is big enough that if smaller (international) instances can moderate in a given language, they should be able to do the same.
Def. create the community here then. Quokk.au was forked for anti-genocide & anti-apartheid praxis. We were there when
.worldwas defending Zionism. When they merged into Zion camp, many users emigrated.don’t be. threadiverse as a whole is very understanding that everyone is different, and can only allot so much time to engaging with others. Everyone here that I am aware of treats threadie like email: “we will respond when its convenient.”
originally. I slowly turning to Ame times, then European. It all depends on syndicates.
not in piefed, .ml, and FHF😅. They have paid moderation. pylova, our fork of piefed, is not financially independent to hire moderation at the moment, but we would appreciate the mutual aid if viable.
Yeah, I strongly disagree with .world’s (and feddit.org’s) views on Zionism, but I just compartmentalize my usage based on my account instance. I’m also personally against the death penalty, which seems to make me pretty unremarkable for most .world mods, even though I’m definitely not against hoping some people die (it’s sadly actually too long a list to make here, but it includes multiple whole professions).
Huh, TIL. Glück im Unglück, I’m too poor to have ever sent them or sadly you guys money.