The way you use LGBT is uncanny, feels half way to a slur the same way Rush Limbaugh would say “Democrat party”. Try calling us LGBT people because whatever the fuck you are saying feels off, very wrong. Like you have a lot to say about LGBT people but you can’t even address us correctly

What the fuck are you even on about? You’re offended I can’t tell if it’s a noun or an adjective? Fucking seriously?

Like, let’s just lay it out at a very high level: LGBT people, like everyone, are weird. Unlike most other weirdness they’re organized and vocal about their weirdness

You should just stop. Everything you are saying ja borderline offensive. Maybe you didn’t mean any offense but you need to spend more time with actual queer people before you write five paragraph essays about what we deal with because you clearly don’t have a clue

Right, they’re special snowflakes who have to be treated like little saints with sole monolithic trait of gayness, rather than normal weirdos with their own interests. Why would they be like everyone else? Transphobic! Fuck off.

You can straight up get fucked for this take. Trans people bear no responsibility or accountability for the hate and political persecution we are subjected to.

We have no agency and bare no responsibility! Fuck anyone who acknowledges our agency in our own live and how our decisions might have bettered our lives. Now in fairness you did say no responsibility for the hate and persecution, and I actually agree with that (I still think you’re an asshole), but I also didn’t say you were responsible. In fact I was rather explicit about the LGBT community not being initial aggressors, so this attack to be comes off more as you complaining that I acknowledged that the LGBT community can play politics (and play them rather well based off the aggression in this comment section). Wild thing to complain about, but you’re an asshole so why would you complain about something reasonable.

Our lives and information about us isn’t political.

Haha, oh you were serious? Let me laugh harder: hahahahaha. You’re community literally chose the most eye catching flag imaginable and has literal parades to get attention and build support. We’re not political, ha ha ha. As if.

We do not need to hide or censor information about trans people just because a bunch of childish bullies are making a scene about it.

I guess you can’t see how classifying someone posting only about trans people as political (not even as a criticism) is different than telling people to avoid ever posting about trans people?

You got vibes where you pretend to be a supporter of the LGBT community but then always find ways to take transphobic positions for allegedly not transphobic reasons.

I advocated, but I didn’t do it in the right way or without nuance, so fuck me. You don’t need allies like that.

. I’m sure it’s just that you don’t like politics, or incivility, or things that are disruptive. It just so happens queer lives have been made political by our adversaries, the bullying we are subjected to is disruptive, and we can be incredibly rude when we get mad about all of this, so you’ll always side against us.

No, I’m still on your side. Well, not you specifically. You’re an asshole who’s effectively burning my account. Fuck you. But trans folks more generally are fine, and should be treated like anyone else.

Your comment was so long tripping over itself with squirrely qualifying language but you basically said: “Tr***ies are weird and controversial, and need to chill out and hide themselves my convenience. For me the most frustrating thing about the persecution and harrasment they face is how it could potentially disrupt my Internet communities. And these weird MFers know they are political too”

Transies are just as weird as anyone else. The ones around here definitely need to chill the fuck out, and a lot of the internet ones maybe need to have multiple nuanced interests that don’t revolve around one topic. The most frustrating thing about the persecution and harassment they currently face is a lack of broader perspective for both wider society and history by their critics in the tamer portion of society – suburban republicans who see them being loud and political thinking “how dare they push their views on me, I’ve never seen them persecuted, there’s no reason for this” rather than understanding the historical context and persistent persecution in other contexts that they still face.

God, I want to tell you off because I really don’t like you, but also I have to make the arguments you should be making because I’m largely on your side. Seriously, fuck you. I honestly want to support trans people by explaining this shit to people from background who don’t see it, but they’re gonna see this argument and think well this guy supports them and they’re still assholes. Real productive. I’m sure this will convince everyone.

Id like to think you are a misguided ally who needs to shut up and listen the way you put “build allies” in quotes really does not leave a good taste in my nouth

I’d like to think you’ve just never talked to anyone who wasn’t constantly surrounded by radical gay space tankies, but given the current state of the world that’s a bit hard to believe and it seems far more likely that you’re just an ass.

The LGBT community works very hard to “build allies” (make disliking their weirdness socially taboo)

Like wtf that’s a weird and uncanny way to say it

Right why try to frame thing in multiple ways? that’ll never build allies. Speak in your own terms and never try to appeal to perspectives who might not have experience with our community.

Honestly, I hate to admit it but this is probably your best criticism of me. I was speaking the way I speak to normal people in my community who are wary of trans people, but my audience was gay space tankies who clearly took offense. You’re still an asshole.

if nothing else @TRAHR@quokk.au is very clearly a very political account who probably shouldn’t be posting on mander in the first place.

Oh yeah now we’re on to straight up unfiltered transphobia where any trans person who doesn’t try to hide their identity is political. And politcal is bad and trans is political so we should ban trans people posting trans sciencr from the science community. But it’s not because trans people are banned, just politics wink wink

I think I already mentioned there’s a difference between an account that exclusively posts about trans stuff and an account that sometimes post about trans stuff – one is clearly political, and it’s ridiculous to pretend otherwise. Did I say it was bad to be political? I do think it’s bad to be political, but I generally reserve that view with LGBT people since they have legitimate reasons to be political – I’m pretty sure I pointed out those reasons.

Honestly the bigger reason you shouldn’t post trans arguments in science communities is because it kinda undermines the arguments. Trans rights should be supported because they’re people, not because “gender is a spectrum”. There’s actually a decent amount of debate that can be had about the underlying definition of “gender” that ultimately just doesn’t fucking matter. Like, you could argue that gendered pheno-morphisms are the core of gender and since those are a spectrum, gender is a spectrum, thus trans people are “natural”. I think that’s bad argument to make. Worker bees and queen bees are radically different phenomorphs for female bees, so why would phenomorphisms define gender? It seems pretty obvious that the genotype defines gender. Some people would argue that a genotype phenotype mismatch is unnatural, so trans people are bad, but personally I think that’s shit argument because polio is natural so nature is a bit shit - who cares what’s natural? Trans people are people, so they should be treated with the basic dignity and respect that all people deserve. Unless they’re asshole to me on the internet, then fuck em.

Like you can 100% get fucked if you think a trans person posting about trans issues is political

Ignore what your ears and eyes and common sense tell you. Trans people posting soley about being trans it totally normal and well adjusted behavior. Honestly, I don’t see why it being political matters. Aside from the tribalism that is almost certainly not good for your mental health (that’s the not normal or well adjusted part the tribalism not the trans, I know you were gonna try to put words in my mouth), politics is kinda a thing and the LGBT community is doing politics in one of the more sensible ways to do politics, so it’s not really a criticism to say it’s political.

I mean you posting about me being transphobic for not siding with you hard enough is a shit way of doing politics, and there’s definitely the temptation to turn against your whole group because one of you was mean to me on the internet, but I’m not a complete child – of course I’m not gonna be a complete adult about it either: Fuck you.

because you might say something that gets you banned

Or maybe because a bunch of mindless tribal assholes, you, are gonna jump down my throat and shove words in my mouth.

If that’s really the case you should just come out and say it so the powers that be can “self moderate” your probably transphobic ass out of here

I’m asshole-phobic. I admit it. People like you. Yeah, fuck them.

Or maybe you could “choose different” communities because it would be a blessing to never see BillyGruf talking about trans people ever again

Nice use the username in case I delete the comments where you misrepresent my views that way you ruin the account. I can’t see how completely eliminating the incentive to disengage could possibly result in more conflict.

Well, if you don’t see how that aspect of yourself could be seen as transphobic, I can see why you don’t think you’re transphobic, but you’re clearly very passionate about a topic that most other people recognize as transphobia.

I couldn’t give a fuck less about trans people. Actually, I could. I’m generally on the live and let live, but despite how much of complete fucking bastards you’ve all been in the responses I actually do still have to argue in favor of defending them from stupid ass political bullshit. Right at this particular moment, dealing with you and the other people here, I really don’t want to believe that they should be defended, but unfortunately for my current mood - I do actually believe trans people should be left alone and treated like any other person. Unless I suppose they’re being assholes on the internet, then they should be told off as assholes on the internet.

prick.

I apologize if it came across that way, but that wasn’t my intent.

Whelp. Idk how to respond in a way that doesn’t provoke more conflict over things I don’t think we should be fighting over.

So I’m disengaging.

Man, this response sucks. I put so much effort into trying to politely explain why this situation arose while making it clear that I’m cool with LGBT people, and I still get this demonization for not mindlessly siding with one side. Yeah, I did call out the person who posted in violation of a communities rules & guidelines then came running to dbzer0 to stir up drama – that’s wildly inappropriate behavior.

Whatever, y’all can stay apart of your tribe and blind yourself to any other. I don’t think it’s wise, but you’re clearly not gonna listen to me.

Well, if you don’t see how that aspect of yourself could be seen as political, I can see why you don’t think you’re political, but you’re clearly very passionate about a topic that most other people recognize as somewhat political. There’s nothing wrong with that in itself, but I think you can see a conflict like this was fairly likely if you’re regularly posting indiscriminately with no little knowledge of the instances or communities you’re posting in. It’s not the end of the world nor is it an attack on you or your passions. You’ll either learn to self moderate or choose different communities.

Now, if you don’t mind I’m gonna step away from this conversation before an over eager mod/admin bans my ass.

My main account used to be on mander, and politics is kinda a general but subtle problem on mander. (I eventually decided not to have a “main” account at all after I realized how much creepy surveillance is on the internet – little to do with mander’s politics.)

Sal tries to prevent the political circus from taking over the instance, but there’s a tension because the political circus is increasingly escaping containment and actually effecting people’s lives. While I’m not exactly sure what Sal was thinking with this particular incident, I think it’s hard to disagree that LGBT has become a part of the political circus and culture war.

Like, let’s just lay it out at a very high level: LGBT people, like everyone, are weird. Unlike most other weirdness they’re organized and vocal about their weirdness because of a long history of very real persecution. The LGBT community works very hard to “build allies” (make disliking their weirdness socially taboo) because that protects them from further persecution. This is wise in a sense: It’s a peaceful mechanism of self defense. The issue is as polarization increases people can become confused about which side is the aggressor – even if they know overall the LGBT were persecuted, they may view that has historical, or they may think the response is disproportionate, or some other similar view. This frustrates a lot of LGBT people who have personally experienced these persecutions because they know it’s not over, LGBT won’t be a non-issue anytime in the foreseeable future, and are rather fond of their communities. That said, I think the LGBT community knows it’s become a political element. Debatable whether they’re political pawns being used to seize power or a political faction in their own right.

I can’t tell you whether Sal made the right call or not. I don’t know where people should draw the line for apart of politics or not apart of politics, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want to step away from the political circus. Further, dbzer0 certainly doesn’t have much room to criticize other instances who choose to moderate their communities, even if you don’t fully agree on where to draw the line.

I’d advocate giving @Sal@mander.xyz some grace with these judgements. They’re hard to make, and if nothing else @TRAHR@quokk.au is very clearly a very political account who probably shouldn’t be posting on mander in the first place.

Enos Strate, monolith of evil.^/s

While systems and institutions have an extremely strong effect on society, projecting the perceived net-effect of an institution onto the intent of every individual participating in that institution is absurd, and your implied true version alignment isn’t any better. Who get’s to say what the true version or goal of institution is? Setting aside the net-effect questions from questionable evidence of what society would look like without some variation of these institutions, people are unique inherently multifaceted individuals. They have their own intentions that rarely aligns perfectly with the institutions they cooperate with. While I certainly understand taking issue with some or many specific actions cops are known to take, the idea that they’re all constantly possessed by the specter of the policing institution is just silly. The idea that there is some more true evil version is laughable. Don’t let the specter of your own ideology possess you and convince you of such nonsense - don’t be an anarchist spook.

I urge you to step back from tribalism and ideology and view people as individuals, even if you find their flaws glaring acknowledge they have their own deeply complex lives. You don’t have to forgive their actions, but focus on what’s useful. Rather than letting your self be possessed by ideology and fixating on the flaws and cracks of the ideologies that sometimes possess them, focus on what you have in common and how you can use that to build parallel communities, systems, and institutions that will make a better world. What’s the point in generating conflict and driving people away? Will starting fights with cops help you make the world a better place? On a practical level, what good does it do to conjure opposing ideological specters? Surely it’s better to work together where you can and steer clear where you can’t?

Perhaps there are instances where it’s appropriate to demonize someone for a specific action they’ve taken, but do it consciously as targeted tactic to remove especially egregious and obvious threats, never as blanket ideology.

Honestly, I don’t consider myself radical. I’m definitely frustrated with the world, but I’m not into tribalism – I don’t do -ist’s & -ism’s. I try to focus and talk about specific mechanisms, and my frustration largely derives from the world’s refusal to address those real issues. The us-them tribalism is a self sabotaging distraction.

Like, here’s something that will upset a lot of people: Cops and Anarchists have a lot of overlap. Neither are monolithic groups - both have bad actors that cause problems. Both have large portions who want to protect their communities. Both are willing to due so with violence. Both have a strange fixation on “bad-ass”-ery and skulls. Both have large groups of people they don’t trust (the “feds” or the “criminals”), which as groups are kinda a social fictions (individuals are just individuals). Both justify their ideology by appealing to theory (legal theory or anarchist theory). Both think they’re smarter than the other, but both have well read members and complete morons. Both have a tendency to ignore both the law and theory in favor of the practical.

I’m sure that’s an upsetting comparison for some people, but I don’t think it does us any good to fight about whether and to what extent it’s true. It’s far more productive to use that comparison to build bridges, make peace, and cooperate on specific mechanisms that will make the world a better place. For example police want legitimacy and a lot of anarchists don’t think the current voting system gives legitimacy, both should thus want to move to ranked voting with lottery options, recall mechanisms, and randomized districting. Almost everyone wants free speech, but doesn’t want money in politics. We should agree on taxing both political advertising and donations at insane rates and using those funds for publicly funded elections. Most people want the cheaper services that come from cheaper housing if not the cheaper housing itself, so it should be easy to make laws mandating a fraction of dirt cheap condos be made in proportion to new large houses – that’d fix a big part of the the affordability crisis.

I don’t really believe it’s about who’s in control because most the policies I just listed are things that could be implemented at the local level for essentially free and would dramatically improve the lives of people in that area, but I’ve not heard of anywhere even close to those policies. As far as I can tell most people will fight like cats and dogs for every scrap of power, but don’t actually know what to do with it once they have it (even if they are well intentioned).

Sometimes I imagine what it’s be like to be able to just do my work and not have to worry about making enough to cover rent.

Anti-nuclear. Used to be pro-nuclear because the energy density would allow for very compact energy production, but I don’t trust the government (or corporations) to have any meaningfully concentrated nuclear material. Maybe solid-state nuclear batteries can be made to work and we can use that to dilute the nuclear material – not sure about that yet.

These days I favor local solar and wind.

Wasn’t the EU going for cameras on drivers at all times?

I’d be shocked if it wasn’t illegal to hack your own car by now. People are very authoritarian about vehicles. They’re fine with unreasonable prices, mass surveillance, facial recognition, endless registries, and forced subscriptions (yes, that’s insurance) and eat up any justification the government gives them for it.

An attractive girl talking to me for more than a few sentences is automatically sending mixed messages. Obviously they don’t like me, why are they talking to me? I’m confused.

Nah, they need bag-holders too.

The wealthy will turn it into a bailout. The US government isn’t gonna ‘seize’ anything. They’ll “compromise” by buying the companies directly from the wealthy, and when it all comes crashing down the tax payers will be left holding the bag.

Corrupt hack should eat shit.

Supposedly I’m not allowed to condone these things I’m not willing to condemn, so we can’t talk about how he ought to die.

I’m not convinced tax evasion even hurts the government. Taxes gives currency value via scarcity, but currency also gains value through contracts made on that currency. Taxes is just a contract where everyone is automatically enrolled. As long as there are enough other contracts operating on the currency and the contracts are still enforced, the currency will retain value. The government also isn’t at risk of going broke since it can literally print it’s currency then increase interest rates to stop inflation.

Still hurts you of-course, but it’s a meaningless sacrifice.