You’re still insisting that the current Azov is a bunch of Nazis and therefore the wolfsangel needs to be interpreted as a hate symbol and not neutral heraldry. However, you also base them being Nazis on them using the wolfsangel, unwilling (or unable) to bring up actual evidence of actual Nazi shit in today’s Azov.
As I said in the comment that started this whole thread: Azov got denazified by the state. They went in, removed the black sun (hence why it’s very much relevant), they cracked down on Nazi political expression in the regiment, and even before that tons of Nazis left because they didn’t want to be part of a state organisation that would denazify them.
How can you ignore all that? And why that pin-point focus on Azov? There’s other cases such as the unit now known as the 67th Mechanised, formerly right sector. They also kept the symbols of the Ukraine Volunteer Corps. (Though sword to knife and Kalashnikovs to some other assault rifle. Much better graphic design overall).
You already agreed that the Wolfsangel is not a Nazi symbol as such. If it needs to be avoided because Nazis used it, then the blade-and-rifle stuff also needs to be avoided. Tons of stuff needs to be avoided.
Lastly, another question: Do you have a moral issue with Nazis dying at the front.
I never agreed that the wolfsangel isn’t a Nazi symbol,I conceded that in some very rare circumstances it isn’t used that way and followed it immediately with the qualification that we aren’t talking about those circumstances.
The circumstances we are talking about are pretty much the textbook example of it being used as a Nazi dogwhistle. You acknowledged this. This isn’t one of the times where you can claim it’s like finding the wolfsangel in the crest of an old forester family. Simply bringing that up in this context is literally defending Nazis and I’d like you to stop doing that.
If a Nazi organization uses a symbol (any symbol) as a Nazi dogwhistle, and the government comes in, claims to have cleaned house but keeps the name and that symbol, do you not think that raises some red flags? Does it not make you consider the distinct possibility that they’re not doing a thorough job and just slapping a new coat of paint on the kubelwagon?
I’m not gonna pat the ukranian government on the back for removing the black sun, I’m gonna recognize the fact that they did that instead of completely removing all iconography associated with the Nazi regiment, dissolving it, investigating all people involved thoroughly and moving the men and material into other units or forming a new regiment with strict oversight and discipline and a command structure that’s entirely comprised of army personnel.
Because that’s how you “denazify” without incarcerating or killing the Nazis. Really, it’s how you integrate units that aren’t compatible with your force into yourself. The fact that the ukranian government thought it was enough to change the logo but keep the name and the wolfsangel communicates to anyone watching that they don’t see the Nazi regiment as incompatible with themselves, and they just want people in it to keep their heads down.
If you can stop defending Nazis for a second we can have a laugh at how the 67ths patch shows the profile of consumer grade donated ar-15 rifles with magpul flip up sights and everything. At least the volunteer corps is the iconography of irregulars (the rifles that were already around). When people try to blame everything on nato it’s important to remember that there are whole units whose existence is predicated on corporate sponsorship. Shits fucking grim.
This isn’t one of the times where you can claim it’s like finding the wolfsangel in the crest of an old forester family.
Just for the record: It’s not just some ancient thing you might find somewhere. It’s in active use in German heraldry, family crests, insignia of hunter organisations, etc. It’s a (by now outlawed because cruel) weapon to hunt wolves and foxes. Literally means “wolf rod”, “rod” here in the sense of fishing rod, one side of it would be hung up in a tree, while the part with barbs was equipped with a lure. Have a picture of a reconstruction (just the steel, not the gruesome details).
Semiotically I’d say it’s connected to protection, feistiness, because wolves scary monsters and shit (which really isn’t the case but that’s another can of worms). But consider your run of the mill peasant seeing that thing in a noble crest or such and saying “yep they’re keeping us safe”.
Every German one, two, and five cent coin has oak leaves on it. Same for the D-Mark. Germany is the successor state of Nazi Germany. The SS used oak leaves in insignia. Is the Bundesbank a Nazi organisation? Germany as a whole?
If a Nazi organization uses a symbol (any symbol) as a Nazi dogwhistle, and the government comes in, claims to have cleaned house but keeps the name and that symbol, do you not think that raises some red flags? Does it not make you consider the distinct possibility that they’re not doing a thorough job and just slapping a new coat of paint on the kubelwagon?
I have no reason to believe they weren’t thorough. Have you? Aside from assuming they weren’t thorough by not getting rid of the Wolfsangel. These kinds of insignia aren’t just changed will-nilly, there were a significant number of non-Nazis already in Azov who might’ve liked it, it is not considered to be a Nazi symbol in public Ukrainian perception (though it’s not a common heraldic theme, either, it’s simply “some fancy shape”). They did get rid of the black sun, that one is plain and simply indefensible.
dissolving it […] moving the men and material into other units or forming a new regiment
Ukraine is at war. By pulling regiments apart and reconstituting them you severely fuck with their fighting efficiency: Effective operations require trust in your comrades, requires knowing your comrades, how they will react in what situation, it requires prolonged periods of joint training.
In peace times, sure, that’d be the right thing to do. But Ukraine doesn’t have that luxury. Azov has been fighting Russian invaders since 2014, without pause. For quite a while it was the only regiment really fighting because the Ukrainian army was in complete shambles thanks to hybrid Russian warfare fucking with it. You don’t just dissolve your most experienced force while they’re keeping the enemy from running you over.
and a command structure that’s entirely comprised of army personnel.
…it’s not an army unit, but paramilitary police.
The biggest indicator for me, really, of the denazification working is swathes of Nazis simply packing their stuff and leaving. Why the fuck would they have done that if they had buddies in the interior ministry “only removing the black sun but turning a blind eye to the rest”?
I’m just gonna get it out of the way up front: equating oak leaves and a symbol with, once again, its own ADL entry and many pictures of Nazis using it in tattoos, emblems and patches is absurd and can only be interpreted as providing cover and defense for nazis. Stop defending nazis.
I do have reason to believe they’re just throwing a new coat of paint on the kubelwagon: they’re at war and they want command and control of the Nazi regiment!
You said it yourself, they didn’t do the right thing because they want the Nazis fighting for them.
They didn’t denazify anything and we can both look and see by the symbols and name they used!
equating oak leaves and a symbol with, once again, its own ADL entry
I keep bringing up those examples because you don’t seem to get the point that the thing is not a Swastika. But let me come up with another example, and as the ADL is not really the best source here let’s take the actual authority on the matter, the Bundesverfassungsschutz. Page 26, section 2.13, the Freiheitliche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, featuring its abbreviation “FAP” (sic) inside a cogwheel.
Does that mean that users of the Rust programming logo are now Nazis because letter in cogwheel?
And I can already anticipate the objection: The Rust community didn’t start out as a Nazi org. But then on the flipside Azov got denazified. If Rust did start out as a Nazi org, would we have to get rid of the cogwheel? Or does it get a pass because you can see it used in, among other places, socialist emblems?
You said it yourself, they didn’t do the right thing because they want the Nazis fighting for them.
I didn’t say that. In peace times it would have been the right thing, but Ukraine isn’t at peace, and not dissolving the regiment is necessitated by the war whether the reformed Azov ended up with 80% or 20% Nazis. (According to the Ukrainian state is was something like 20%, and not the really hardcore ones. Presumably also includes Strasserites and all kinds of stuff).
I do have reason to believe they’re just throwing a new coat of paint on the kubelwagon: they’re at war and they want command and control of the Nazi regiment!
Then why go through (enough) denazification to have swathes of Nazis leave?
Also, I see nothing wrong whatsoever with Nazis dying on the front. I fundamentally oppose them running through the streets intimidating people or worse, I oppose them in any legislative capacity, but I don’t mind them holding back an invader. What’s there to loose? They survive and we’re not worse off than before, they die, well, then that’s that.
Or, put differently: Would you support sending them to the front as a penalty battalion?
Bonus: The Verfassungschutz pdf, page 38, section 2.35. The fuckers appropriated the Antifa flags of all things. If you simply outlaw everything they’re using and everything that looks like something they’re using they’re going to appropriate absolutely everything to deny it to us. I wonder if the ADL will copy that one into their list, they’re not always known for having the best of takes.
And while I’m at it, page 82, translated:
The Wolfsangel was an identifying feature of the youth organisation “Junge Front” (JF), which was banned in 1982.
Its use in connection with a banned organisation is punishable by law.
Independent uses, e.g. in town and club coats of arms are not punishable.
1982. It took the symbol that long to even land on the list, presumably because only then did Nazis stumble across it while looking through SS division logos.
You hear that everybody? The Nazi regiment can keep using their hate symbol! Yeah, because they denazified. How can we tell they denazified? They said so. Those are the rules. Who made the rules? The Germans, why? No we can’t trust the ADL. Who says? A German. No, they’re not on one of the .de instances, why?
If it was Azov which said it I wouldn’t even begin to trust it. But it wasn’t Azov it was Ukrainian state structures.
Who made the rules? The Germans, why?
Because we know where that shit leads and are on top of it. To be on top of it, we actually understand it and don’t simply play symbol association games.
No we can’t trust the ADL. Who says? A German.
That’s rather harsh. But they have had quite some blunders in the past. Heart in the right place but actionist kind of stuff.
A German. No, they’re not on one of the .de instances, why?
So you trust the ukranian state not to be fascist so much that you’ll take their word that there aren’t any Nazis over their actions of leaving the dogwhistle symbol and very well known name.
That’s going way beyond gullible, but if you’re willing to look past the ukranian states’ past actions and take it at its word who am I to judge? I mean, as a German you definitely have plenty of success and skill in recognizing Nazis and keeping them out of power: just look at nato and the frg of olde and afd etc today! Clearly Germans can recognize Nazis and effectively keep them out of power! What was I thinking suggesting that a German was being pedantic and providing a smokescreen for Nazis? There’s no systemic historical precedent for that!
so much that you’ll take their word that there aren’t any Nazis
They never claimed that, the estimation was that about 20% of post-denazification Azov troops had an extreme right wing world view.
just look at nato
What. You might mean the CIA, the Regan administration was straight-up fash.
and the frg of olde
Yeah we had an autumn about that one.
and afd etc today
You mean the party 47% want straight outlawed? You know what’s even more interesting? 10% of AfD voters want to outlaw it!
2/3rds of their poll results are protest voters not sharing their ideology and due to those 10% I think we can be sure that many of those are just doing it in opinion polls, and won’t actually cast ballots for them. Those protest votes are by and large from the east which has a significantly lower precentage of people with closed right-wing world-views than the west.
Certainly brought the whole “the east still has shit political representation” issue back into focus, though OTOH I just have to be a besserwessi and say that noone is fucking stopping them from representing themselves.
Oh, another tidbit: Many AfD voters are on welfare. The AfD implementing their stated policy would move wealth from that group to voters of other parties, so much so normal, but they on top of that want to disenfranchise then, tie voting rights to paying tax. If you’re into psychoanalysis and its recognition of forces such as Nazis as catabolic that’s like chef’s kiss, the fuckers even want to eat themselves.
Also if you dislike the AfD so much why are you joining their ranks by endorsing Russian propaganda?
In any case: Azov is not a German battalion. Have a look at where Svoboda polls. Go over to youtube and watch some Dylan Burns, the man is gay and on the ground there.
Stop defending Nazis.
Stop being an actionist and base your decisions on data and analysis. How you analyse I don’t really care, come up with your own yardsticks but do triple down on applying them thoroughly and consistently.
You’re still insisting that the current Azov is a bunch of Nazis and therefore the wolfsangel needs to be interpreted as a hate symbol and not neutral heraldry. However, you also base them being Nazis on them using the wolfsangel, unwilling (or unable) to bring up actual evidence of actual Nazi shit in today’s Azov.
As I said in the comment that started this whole thread: Azov got denazified by the state. They went in, removed the black sun (hence why it’s very much relevant), they cracked down on Nazi political expression in the regiment, and even before that tons of Nazis left because they didn’t want to be part of a state organisation that would denazify them.
How can you ignore all that? And why that pin-point focus on Azov? There’s other cases such as the unit now known as the 67th Mechanised, formerly right sector. They also kept the symbols of the Ukraine Volunteer Corps. (Though sword to knife and Kalashnikovs to some other assault rifle. Much better graphic design overall).
You already agreed that the Wolfsangel is not a Nazi symbol as such. If it needs to be avoided because Nazis used it, then the blade-and-rifle stuff also needs to be avoided. Tons of stuff needs to be avoided.
Lastly, another question: Do you have a moral issue with Nazis dying at the front.
I never agreed that the wolfsangel isn’t a Nazi symbol,I conceded that in some very rare circumstances it isn’t used that way and followed it immediately with the qualification that we aren’t talking about those circumstances.
The circumstances we are talking about are pretty much the textbook example of it being used as a Nazi dogwhistle. You acknowledged this. This isn’t one of the times where you can claim it’s like finding the wolfsangel in the crest of an old forester family. Simply bringing that up in this context is literally defending Nazis and I’d like you to stop doing that.
If a Nazi organization uses a symbol (any symbol) as a Nazi dogwhistle, and the government comes in, claims to have cleaned house but keeps the name and that symbol, do you not think that raises some red flags? Does it not make you consider the distinct possibility that they’re not doing a thorough job and just slapping a new coat of paint on the kubelwagon?
I’m not gonna pat the ukranian government on the back for removing the black sun, I’m gonna recognize the fact that they did that instead of completely removing all iconography associated with the Nazi regiment, dissolving it, investigating all people involved thoroughly and moving the men and material into other units or forming a new regiment with strict oversight and discipline and a command structure that’s entirely comprised of army personnel.
Because that’s how you “denazify” without incarcerating or killing the Nazis. Really, it’s how you integrate units that aren’t compatible with your force into yourself. The fact that the ukranian government thought it was enough to change the logo but keep the name and the wolfsangel communicates to anyone watching that they don’t see the Nazi regiment as incompatible with themselves, and they just want people in it to keep their heads down.
If you can stop defending Nazis for a second we can have a laugh at how the 67ths patch shows the profile of consumer grade donated ar-15 rifles with magpul flip up sights and everything. At least the volunteer corps is the iconography of irregulars (the rifles that were already around). When people try to blame everything on nato it’s important to remember that there are whole units whose existence is predicated on corporate sponsorship. Shits fucking grim.
Just for the record: It’s not just some ancient thing you might find somewhere. It’s in active use in German heraldry, family crests, insignia of hunter organisations, etc. It’s a (by now outlawed because cruel) weapon to hunt wolves and foxes. Literally means “wolf rod”, “rod” here in the sense of fishing rod, one side of it would be hung up in a tree, while the part with barbs was equipped with a lure. Have a picture of a reconstruction (just the steel, not the gruesome details).
Semiotically I’d say it’s connected to protection, feistiness, because wolves scary monsters and shit (which really isn’t the case but that’s another can of worms). But consider your run of the mill peasant seeing that thing in a noble crest or such and saying “yep they’re keeping us safe”.
Every German one, two, and five cent coin has oak leaves on it. Same for the D-Mark. Germany is the successor state of Nazi Germany. The SS used oak leaves in insignia. Is the Bundesbank a Nazi organisation? Germany as a whole?
I have no reason to believe they weren’t thorough. Have you? Aside from assuming they weren’t thorough by not getting rid of the Wolfsangel. These kinds of insignia aren’t just changed will-nilly, there were a significant number of non-Nazis already in Azov who might’ve liked it, it is not considered to be a Nazi symbol in public Ukrainian perception (though it’s not a common heraldic theme, either, it’s simply “some fancy shape”). They did get rid of the black sun, that one is plain and simply indefensible.
Ukraine is at war. By pulling regiments apart and reconstituting them you severely fuck with their fighting efficiency: Effective operations require trust in your comrades, requires knowing your comrades, how they will react in what situation, it requires prolonged periods of joint training.
In peace times, sure, that’d be the right thing to do. But Ukraine doesn’t have that luxury. Azov has been fighting Russian invaders since 2014, without pause. For quite a while it was the only regiment really fighting because the Ukrainian army was in complete shambles thanks to hybrid Russian warfare fucking with it. You don’t just dissolve your most experienced force while they’re keeping the enemy from running you over.
…it’s not an army unit, but paramilitary police.
The biggest indicator for me, really, of the denazification working is swathes of Nazis simply packing their stuff and leaving. Why the fuck would they have done that if they had buddies in the interior ministry “only removing the black sun but turning a blind eye to the rest”?
I’m just gonna get it out of the way up front: equating oak leaves and a symbol with, once again, its own ADL entry and many pictures of Nazis using it in tattoos, emblems and patches is absurd and can only be interpreted as providing cover and defense for nazis. Stop defending nazis.
I do have reason to believe they’re just throwing a new coat of paint on the kubelwagon: they’re at war and they want command and control of the Nazi regiment!
You said it yourself, they didn’t do the right thing because they want the Nazis fighting for them.
They didn’t denazify anything and we can both look and see by the symbols and name they used!
I keep bringing up those examples because you don’t seem to get the point that the thing is not a Swastika. But let me come up with another example, and as the ADL is not really the best source here let’s take the actual authority on the matter, the Bundesverfassungsschutz. Page 26, section 2.13, the Freiheitliche Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, featuring its abbreviation “FAP” (sic) inside a cogwheel.
Does that mean that users of the Rust programming logo are now Nazis because letter in cogwheel?
And I can already anticipate the objection: The Rust community didn’t start out as a Nazi org. But then on the flipside Azov got denazified. If Rust did start out as a Nazi org, would we have to get rid of the cogwheel? Or does it get a pass because you can see it used in, among other places, socialist emblems?
I didn’t say that. In peace times it would have been the right thing, but Ukraine isn’t at peace, and not dissolving the regiment is necessitated by the war whether the reformed Azov ended up with 80% or 20% Nazis. (According to the Ukrainian state is was something like 20%, and not the really hardcore ones. Presumably also includes Strasserites and all kinds of stuff).
Then why go through (enough) denazification to have swathes of Nazis leave?
Also, I see nothing wrong whatsoever with Nazis dying on the front. I fundamentally oppose them running through the streets intimidating people or worse, I oppose them in any legislative capacity, but I don’t mind them holding back an invader. What’s there to loose? They survive and we’re not worse off than before, they die, well, then that’s that.
Or, put differently: Would you support sending them to the front as a penalty battalion?
Bonus: The Verfassungschutz pdf, page 38, section 2.35. The fuckers appropriated the Antifa flags of all things. If you simply outlaw everything they’re using and everything that looks like something they’re using they’re going to appropriate absolutely everything to deny it to us. I wonder if the ADL will copy that one into their list, they’re not always known for having the best of takes.
And while I’m at it, page 82, translated:
1982. It took the symbol that long to even land on the list, presumably because only then did Nazis stumble across it while looking through SS division logos.
You hear that everybody? The Nazi regiment can keep using their hate symbol! Yeah, because they denazified. How can we tell they denazified? They said so. Those are the rules. Who made the rules? The Germans, why? No we can’t trust the ADL. Who says? A German. No, they’re not on one of the .de instances, why?
If it was Azov which said it I wouldn’t even begin to trust it. But it wasn’t Azov it was Ukrainian state structures.
Because we know where that shit leads and are on top of it. To be on top of it, we actually understand it and don’t simply play symbol association games.
That’s rather harsh. But they have had quite some blunders in the past. Heart in the right place but actionist kind of stuff.
Civis europaeus sum.
So you trust the ukranian state not to be fascist so much that you’ll take their word that there aren’t any Nazis over their actions of leaving the dogwhistle symbol and very well known name.
That’s going way beyond gullible, but if you’re willing to look past the ukranian states’ past actions and take it at its word who am I to judge? I mean, as a German you definitely have plenty of success and skill in recognizing Nazis and keeping them out of power: just look at nato and the frg of olde and afd etc today! Clearly Germans can recognize Nazis and effectively keep them out of power! What was I thinking suggesting that a German was being pedantic and providing a smokescreen for Nazis? There’s no systemic historical precedent for that!
Stop defending Nazis.
They never claimed that, the estimation was that about 20% of post-denazification Azov troops had an extreme right wing world view.
What. You might mean the CIA, the Regan administration was straight-up fash.
Yeah we had an autumn about that one.
You mean the party 47% want straight outlawed? You know what’s even more interesting? 10% of AfD voters want to outlaw it!
2/3rds of their poll results are protest voters not sharing their ideology and due to those 10% I think we can be sure that many of those are just doing it in opinion polls, and won’t actually cast ballots for them. Those protest votes are by and large from the east which has a significantly lower precentage of people with closed right-wing world-views than the west.
Certainly brought the whole “the east still has shit political representation” issue back into focus, though OTOH I just have to be a besserwessi and say that noone is fucking stopping them from representing themselves.
Oh, another tidbit: Many AfD voters are on welfare. The AfD implementing their stated policy would move wealth from that group to voters of other parties, so much so normal, but they on top of that want to disenfranchise then, tie voting rights to paying tax. If you’re into psychoanalysis and its recognition of forces such as Nazis as catabolic that’s like chef’s kiss, the fuckers even want to eat themselves.
Also if you dislike the AfD so much why are you joining their ranks by endorsing Russian propaganda?
In any case: Azov is not a German battalion. Have a look at where Svoboda polls. Go over to youtube and watch some Dylan Burns, the man is gay and on the ground there.
Stop being an actionist and base your decisions on data and analysis. How you analyse I don’t really care, come up with your own yardsticks but do triple down on applying them thoroughly and consistently.