Time to De-Google I guess. I will keep using Firefox and if or when I come across any website pulling this crap I won’t hesitate to blast them to eternity. I suggest everyone else do the same please.
Time was a decade ago… But better now than never.
With that kind of attitude, it’s a wonder no one listened to you a decade ago!
Lol. As soon as I heard someone upload their contacts to Google I thought “welp, I’m out.” And yeah, no one listened then either.
Still, we got diaspora working finally. May the force be with you.
I’ve been converting folks where I can! I work in IT for a huge corporation, so our computers all come pre-loaded with Firefox set as the default browser haha.
And with you!
Damn. How’d you swing that? Everyone I know is still stuck in the Microsoft/Chrome cycle.
I don’t give my users a choice at work and those computers are all locked down to where they’d need an admin to install Chrome.
As far as my personal life goes, I’ve just been the go-to guy for computer questions for friends and family most of my life, so they usually listen to my advice, but it also helps to just go into detail as to why the change is necessary (not recommended, but necessary). No one likes to hear that their web browser is making it impossible to block ads and is streamlining the ad experience so they get more ads. Everyone despises ads lol.
Chad!
I cringe when I remember willingly filling out my contacts list like it was nobody’s business. I’m so sorry, friends and acquaintances. :(
I’m just going to stop using sites that implement this tech. Maybe I’ll even make a site and actually contribute to the web with all the free time I’ll have 😇
It’ll be next to impossible when those websites are your bank and Netflix etc.
I figured that banks would use it so I have a browser for them and there are alternatives to Netflix that don’t have any drm.
Yarrr 🏴☠️
I’m out of the loop on this one and I’m probably the minority here but big banks would probably incorporate this whole WEI thing but wouldn’t smaller institutions like credit unions opt out? I apologize for my ignorance, I haven’t looked into this at all. This is the first time I’m hearing about WEI and I’m trying to garner some sort of and idea of what it is via comments rather than reading an article about it like a regular human being.
Honestly I am in the same boat, but big banks still make a large portion of the banking system and I don’t why the smaller banks wouldn’t just follow along.
De-google, anyone?
How do you “de-google” when most websites expect most browsers to use chromium and start requiring this to ensure
companies buying ad space get the best bang for their bucksecurity?Most websites? Haven’t come across one yet (I am using Firefox on all devices and don’t have any other browser installed) … Do you have any examples?
Yeah I don’t think this comment is accurate, the only website that gives you a subpar experience to incentivize you to use a Chromium-based browser that I’ve come across is, well, google.com on mobile.
Luckily you can download a plugin on Firefox to trick google.com to show you the Chromium experience, or you can just use something like startpage.
That’s true. Luckily I removed Google Search Fixer from my browser this week, as I finally gave up on Google search (hopefully this time it’s permanent).
In my opinion its results have been getting so bad (including boolean searches) in the last months that I feel that other search engines don’t provide a significantly worse experience anymore. I was unable to find content on Google that I know I found there before and where I know that it’s still on the internet, as I was able to find it with other search engines. I actually found that for example Bing gave me much more results when filtering by date range, e. g. searching for web content dated before 2005.
Google’s web DRM project was the final straw for me to finally be serious about trying other search engines again (all my previous attempts eventually failed due to my boolean search requirement) and use as little Google services as possible. I have also tried to lower my usage of YouTube over the last couple of months by primarily subscribing to channels I know from YouTube on PeerTube and by using the Piped frontend more. Since I subscribed to YouTube channels via RSS already, it wasn’t difficult to switch the RSS feed over to PeerTube instead. ;)
I selfhost SearXNG. Its pretty good. And you can turn on and off different search engines (e.g Google, Bing, Yahoo)
For me, when a website doesn’t work in Firefox but does in Chrome or edge, most of the time the real reason is due to me switching from a browser with dozens of add-ons to one with 0.
Otherwise Firefox works fine everywhere.
Snapchat web client doesn’t work on Firefox :( that’s the only one I’ve run into
Interesting! I have actually never used Snapchat, so I haven’t come across this.
Firefox and ublock origin to start. Site requires Chromium? Buh bye now.
Good luck with that when the site is your bank, your doctor, or your government.
I’ve been de-Googled for 6 months now and the internet works just fine on Firefox and Safari. No significant differences.
We do to google what we should have done to Microsoft: we stop visiting those sights
But we didn’t do it with MS. And they saw that. They were the last real antitrust case that was big.
I agree it is an uphill battle, but it must start somewhere. Else, it only gets worse, and then movements against such abuses will get easily crushed. As I like to say, “the hardest part of a journey is the first step”, but also “the future belongs to those who prepare now”.
If I can’t internet without ads, I can’t internet at all.
Except it’s practically impossible to exist in modern society without internet. Unless you’re rich and you can get other people to do internet-requiring tasks for you.
Same. If my pihole breaks the internet because of this, welp. 🤷🏻♀️
I can count the websites I’m using that don’t work with Firefox on one hand.
I like AOSP based roms (Monet and material you) and Pixel Launcher, I use (a bit Google Assistant) and Gmail, Google maps, YouTube… Even Chrome (and I’m pretty sure many macOS apps are Chromium based), how do I even start lol.
There are AOSP based roms that are de-googled. You can use third party app stores to download foss software, or other 3rd party stores that let you download from Google play (aurora). iPhone is basically the only other choice, but it’s not any better in this context.
Lots of alternative email providers. Protonmail is one.
For maps, openstreetmap exists. You can also use Google maps without an account inside a secure browser. That will minimize data collection.
You can use a downloader (yt-dlp or a gui that wraps it) for YouTube, or use a 3rd party app like NewPipe. Again, using YouTube without an account in a secure browser is an option.
Chrome can obviously be replaced with Firefox/LibreWolf. If you must have a chromium based browser, you can use ungoogled chromium. chrlauncher is a small app that can be used to make it easy on windows and keep it updated.
You cant really do anything about the apps that use chromium internally for rendering, besides finding replacements.
I haven’t been able to use aurora reliably since a lot of their accounts got banned. Are there any alternatives?
It’s small, but here’s a real actionable item that you can do to help:
Put a gentle “Use Firefox” (or any other non-Chromium-based browser) message on your website. It doesn’t have to be in-your-face, just something small. I’ve taken my own advice and added it to my own website: https://geeklaunch.io/ (Only appears in Chromium-based browsers.)
We can slowly turn the tide, little by little.
Copy and paste:
<p> This site is designed for <a href="https://firefox.com/">Firefox</a>, a web browser that respects your privacy. </p>(I also posted this on the HN discussion.)
One way to hide it for Firefox users.
<p class="not-firefox-warning"> This site is designed for <a href="https://firefox.com/">Firefox</a>, a web browser that respects your privacy. </p> <style> @-moz-document url-prefix() { .not-firefox-warning { display: none; }} </style>I have a banner on mine as well that I did a couple weeks ago: https://toast.al
I’m mad tho since it has false positives with Mulch / Bromite on Android. I wasn’t able to find something right away to detect it, but the DRM stuff would probably work.
Your browser supports Web-DRM. Some features might not be available.
IE in the 2000’s called, it wants it’s dream back.
Between this, hobbling adblockers and performing enough monopolistic acts to warrant swift government action, I really see this more as Chrome dying than the web itself.
Breakup Alphabet. It’s the only way.
Microsoft, Facebook, and Amazon next
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You will use the web as google said or you won’t use it at all.
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Ah but what you don’t remember is when you’re drunk you go on the Internet and stumble around and talk incoherently
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When you’re drunk you don’t remember using the Internet
Until you do, and die of anxiety.
If you don’t check what you wrote it doesn’t exist, right? Right?
How to kill 3% of your userbase: implement DRM
Sadly likely close to the truth…
But this is the 3% that sets trends. I am sure most of us were biggest google simps 10-15 years ago… no so nowadays.
Maps and youtube are only products i have not kicked… yet
When they add three strikes to AdBlock for Google, I’ll probably drop that too. Or I’ll try as it’s the only video platform.
I suggest using invidious if you’re gonna use YouTube
YouTube is on teevee… No solution for that as far as I know.
I just pay to avoid ads
DRM for the web.
Basically, if your browser modifies a web page in any way (such as by blocking ads, applying a theme, disabling javascript, whatever), the server would be able to detect this and deny access.
This sound scaring, but we have been working around DRM shit since it’s invention if I recall… Should we still be alarmed?
Yes absolutely. Your hardware has built in DRM capabilities. Modern CPUs basically have a 2nd small CPU inside that runs proprietary code and manages the primary CPU, and it also handles DRM.
That isn’t something you can easily work around.
Google is pushing some bullshit that would allow websites to check if a client (you, your browser, your device) is on the okie-dokey list. If yes, you may enter e. g. Youtube, if not the you’re out. It’s like a bouncer for websites and of course Google would be that bouncer. So you might stand out in the rain if you are using one of the following:
-
VPN
-
Adblock
-
Non-Chromium browser like Firefox
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They’re trying to be the new AOL I guess.
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WEI checks your browser, your extensions and your OS to ensure that a site is not tampered with. Officially it’s to make sure that sites don’t have to deal as much with bots.
Too bad that many of us use adblockers to protect us from malicious ads or remove ads to make a website bearable. Google also happens to distribute ads which makes the fact that adblockers likely won’t work anymore a very concenient coincidence they totally didn’t have in mind.
It’s also possible that non-Chromium browsers (for example Firefox) will stop working due to them either not supporting WEI or not being considered legitimate by whoever will do the checks.
It is also completely contrary to the whole concept of html web design where the browser has complete control over fonts, spacing, discreet content display, etc, so that each user can consume the content in a way that works for them.
Website: Hello, Name and ID
Chrome: Hello! I’m Chrome by Google and here’s my ID
Website: OK, you are allowed in.
Adblocker: Get Lost Ads!
Website: You leave right now, GoodbyeAlthough it’s not just adblockers it’s also uncertified browsers
Website: Hello, Name and ID.
Firefox: Hello I am Firefox and here’s my ID.
Website: Your not on our list, GET LOST!your user name 🤣
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Basically drop „don’t be evil“, split to Alphabet, wait a few years, be evil
laughs maniacally in money
This video by Louis Rossman is a pretty good explainer https://yewtu.be/watch?v=0i0Ho-x7s_U
So this is a problem for all browsers based on Chromium right???
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No, it is a problem for all browsers, present and future, period.
The point is that major websites, even government ones might decide to be only available on Chrome.
Question for anyone with more understanding of the implementation…
Doesn’t this still presume the browser tells the truth to the third party attester? Could we not build something that just straight up lies to the attester? Says I’m a good Google chrome user with no extensions please serve me ads sir?
My understanding was that the browser vendor itself would be the attester. So if Google says it’s Google Chrome, it probably is. Unless you somehow reverse engineer how Google decides that it’s Google Chrome and spoof that or something…
Is there anything a person can do about it, other than using Firefox and degoogling?
La
What is WEI?
Stands for Web Environment Integrity. Beyond that, I know nothing.
DRM in the web.
excuse my ignorance, what is DRM?
Digital Rights Management. Usually DRM agreements are imbedded in the terms and conditions no one reads when they install software. It usually gives the software vendor the right to monitor your use of the software in real time via the internet.
Within the context of Chrome and other Chromium based web browsers, this means that Google will be able to monitor your web browsing in a new way any time you’re using a browser based on Chrome/Chromium.
Within the context of Chrome and other Chromium based web browsers, this means that Google will be able to monitor your web browsing in a new way any time you’re using a browser based on Chrome/Chromium.
With only slight hyperbole, we can say that Google can do this monitoring already.
What’s worse, is now they can:
- Refuse you access to information by refusing to attest your environment.
- Restrict your browser, extensions, and operating system setup by refusing attestation.
- Potentially bring litigation against you for attempting to circumvent DRM (in the USA it’s illegal to bypass DRM).
- Leverage their ad network to require web site operators to use attestation if they wish to serve ads via Google. AKA force you to use Chrome to use big websites.
- Derank search results for sites that are not using attestation.
In my opinion, the least harmful part of this is the ability to monitor page access, because they can more or less do this for Chrome users anyway. What’s really harmful here is the potential to restrict access to and destroy practically the entirety of the internet.
from https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/1053748
https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/wei-wpt-other
https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/wei-wpt
these showed up after Jul 21 per GitHub “contribution activity” but are retroactively dated to 13 - they were probably private before that.
Please comment any information under this post and create cross-links to any possible posts - to create comprehensible information source.
Shamelessly stolen from the HN thread:
Don’t just comment and complain, contact your antitrust authority today: US:
EU:
UK:
India:
Email template:
I would like to bring your attention to Google’s recent proposal to add a feature to its Chrome (Chromium family) of browsers called Web Environment Integrity. This provides a mechanism to reinforce Google’s already dominant browser market position by creating a technological control that can be used to nullify a user’s choice of browser, device and operating system. This technology also has the potential for abuse by preventing users from using browser extensions that can enhance security by blocking unwanted and potentially malicious content, as well as browser extensions that help vulnerable users with enhanced accessibility needs, such as color blindness and visual impairment. Google’s dominant, near-monopoly position in the browser market already harms me as a consumer by reducing browser choices and preventing a competitive market for developing new browsers. Allowing Google to include this feature will reduce my browser choices and consolidate the browser market even further, and it is incumbent on [INSERT AUTHORITY HERE] to take action against this abusive behavior.Can you explain to someone not so tech savy what this means?
No more add blockers. No more accessibility tools. Only what google wants you to see.
And this will work for google products only of for chrome as a whole?
A fork like Vivaldi, Brave or Opera could opt not to implement these changes, but then some websites could become incompatible to them.
A fork like Vivaldi, Brave or Opera could opt not to implement these changes
It doesn’t quite work like that. They wouldn’t choose to not implement the change, because the change comes from upstream via Chromium. They would have to choose to remove the feature which, depending on how it’s integrated, could be just as much work as implementing it (or more, if Google wants to be difficult on purpose). Not implementing the change is zero effort; removing the upstream code is a lot of effort.
It depends on how Google wants to play this. If they require website operators to use WEI in order to serve ads from Google’s ad network (a real possibility), then suddenly 98.8% of websites that have advertising, and 49.5% of all websites would be unusable unless you’re using Chrome. It’s probably safe to assume they’d also apply this to their own products, which means YouTube, Gmail, Drive/Docs, all of which have large userbases. The spec allows denying attestation if they don’t like your browser, but also if they don’t like your OS. They could effectively disallow LineageOS and all Android derivatives, not just browser alternatives.
