Outdoor cat: “today I killed 300 birds and permanently altered the local ecosystem”
Indoor cat: “hehe I shit in a box”
And so begins a new battle in the eternal war between Americans with indoor cats and others with outdoor cats.
It’s pretty difficult to actually find an indoor cat in the UK. In the US it’s common.
Of course it is difficult to find an indoor cat, you only see them inside a house.
I guess we in Finland are Americand now lol
We’re more worried about the cats wellbeing though than the birds.
Why are Finns so worried about cats? There’s always plenty of cats.
With a name like Kusimulkku I should have guessed. I wouldn’t call you American but you are one of the weirdest countries in Europe. A language designed to confuse with an obsessive dedication to double-consanants. I assume your cats are as unsociable as your people.
What’s with this random driveby on Finland and their language?? We’re just talking about cats
It’s called banter. Light-hearted joshing. I love the Swedish Mongols; very amusing people.
Don’t think the Finn’s took kindly to your joshing, bud u_u
Probably just seemed so out of nowhere
Confusing written language seems like an odd critique from some with UK in their name.
Alright Moomin wrangler! Less of your cheek.
Which is fitting because, in the end, when the hell have the British cared about the fallout of anything they do
🤣 seems like the yanks learned that pretty well from us then.
Lol American is the fallout of you people sending all your crazy religious fucks across the ocean and hoping for the best
To be fair I wouldn’t say we ‘sent them’ more that they left because they couldn’t oppress people as much as they wanted.
Heeeyy! We just kicked them out, we didn’t know they’d go and start a new country overseas!
We honestly should have killed them there and then, nip it in the bud.
Bro we’re talking about owning a cat. Get a fucking grip.
It was a light hearted joke about the British that clearly hit a little close to home considering your rage.
I mean, have you read the other comments here?
A responsibility you clearly dont grasp
You’re literally crying about animals killing other animals. Stupid, non-verbal animals that function on instinct.
… Which is why you need to keep them inside, because when they are outside they act on instinct.
12 year olds understand this. Where are you stuck? Is it because I didnt use large colorful pictures? Are words with 5+ letters the problem?
Our cats are indoors. They used to be outdoors then some cunt shot one with an air rifle.
I hope you found the miscreant and shot them in the arsehole with a cricket bat!?
My neighbour at the time was a lovely rough diamond type with a big knife scar down his face. He said he had an idea who it might have been and was going to have words.
We moved out of that area not long after.
We moved out of that area not long after.
…burying the bodies.
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Seems like we brought the reddit with us
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Found the yank
I’m not so sure both about Americans having their cats indoors, and “others” having it the opposite way. I have never been to the UK or the US, but most owners I had seen kept their cats indoors. Except for Georgia (the country), where cats seem to be treated as some sort of weed that grows on it’s own
Except for Georgia (the country), where cats seem to be treated as some sort of weed that grows on it’s own
I like this phrasing. I’d love to hear more about how you came to this conclusion.
There are a lot of strays around at first sight, but then I found out that at least about a third of them have owner/owners because they sometimes stick to several places. A lot of people also care for the strays and check them for issues not taking 'em home, some initiatives are doing neutering and finding homes for treated cats.
I heard it’s somewhat similar in Türkiye, everyone loves cats but mostly don’t want to care about them above feeding them when met. Don’t know if outdoor cats are popular there, though
There’s plenty of Americans with outdoor cats.
So are all the birds dead in the UK
Nope. And the RSPB doesn’t believe cats are a concern:
The UK’s largest bird charity, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB), is not particularly concerned about the impact of cats on the British mainland.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/14/cats-kill-birds-wildlife-keep-indoors
And a Bristol study found cats kill the “doomed” weak and sick birds - not healthy birds: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1474-919X.2008.00836.x
Cats have also been around in the UK significantly longer than many other places. Here in Hawaii they’re a plague on native species that had no such predators before.
That’s a big part of the difference. Cats in the old world are probably fine since everything there has evolved alongside them. But the native species in the Americas haven’t had housecats to worry about until relatively recently in evolutionary terms.
I’m a outdoor cat person but in fairness one issue to consider is that while cats are natural in Europe, their current numbers and general location are something that’s pretty unnatural. I definitely err on the side of not being concerned about it, but I do think it’s something to consider as people have more pets.
Personally I have one cat that has brought in a single frog, and another that exclusively brings in recycling.
Yeah but Hawaii’s ecosystem is different from the mainland, too. Every area is going to handle this differently.
Yes, according to the RSPB habitat destruction from expanding urban areas and farmland is the main threat to bird life in the UK.
When my family had a cat it would mostly catch and bring home earthworms.
When my family had a cat it would mostly catch and bring home earthworms.
I think you had a defective cat. :/
I get lots of leaves and slugs. Occasionally an alive frog, one loves catching them for me but never even attempts to eat it.
The UK used to have a different feline species that was native to the isles.
Its likely going extinct because of the UK obsession with outdoor cats.
Since 2017, the Cat Classification Task Force of the Cat Specialist Group recognizes Felis silvestris silvestris as the valid scientific name for all European wildcat populations, arguing that it is doubtful that the Scottish wildcat is sufficiently distinct to accord it separate subspecific status.
It’s just a plain old cat, it’s not going extinct.
Old world animals evolved alongside domesticated cats. New world animals did not.
Skill issue. You need to train your wildlife to speak cat.
More importantly, to hear cat.
And thats why the wild felines are going extinct in the british isles.
Ay, but tradition right? Fuck the natives, as is british tradition
Yeah the British really do have a history of royally fucking over whole eco systems. Brought rabbits to Australia thinking they would be a good food source.
Except they bred like well rabbits. And destroyed whole eco systems. So the British imported foxes to eat the rabbits. Except literally every other native species is easier for a fox to kill than a fast rabbit.
Fucking morons.
That’s a bit of a harsh take considering it was one guy on the 19th century who didn’t know better. Looking at it he brought 13 rabbits for his private estate - I don’t think the science was there for extended Environmental Impact Studies back then - just some rich guy making a minor change to his place having unintended consequences so branding an entire country as fucking morons is a bit much.
Okay. One English guy was a fucking moron with regards to rabbits. Plenty others were morons for other things in Australia.
Awesome, glad that’s settled, just a minor blip on what would be Australia’s impeccable record of care for both indigenous creatures, and indigenous people.
Should we talk about the English record of care for indigenous people, creatures and artifacts?
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Where I live you’re not supposed to let the cats roam free because it’s dangerous to them and they can get ran over, get diseases, hurt themselves without you being able to do anything etc.
I guess the local ecosystem is a plus but it’s mostly for the cat’s benefit afaik.
Indoor cats are generally healthier, if you give them enough enrichment. I live in a tiny little house but my cat has boxes to hide in, toys to play with, multiple spots to look out windows, etc. She won’t get sick or injured as much as an indoor/outdoor cat and will probably live longer.
Our 3 cats kill maybe a total of 5 birds and 10 mice a year. They can’t reproduce and prefer to stay inside for most of the year. They’re not a problem, as many new studies have found out. At least in northern Germany. It might be a bigger problem elsewhere though. Just trying to point out that your criticism may only apply to certain areas.
That’s what you know they have killed. Who knows how much more. They also still get hit by cars, mauled by dogs, attacked by other cats, piss and shit in other people’s yards.
That you know of. I’m a bird lover, I’ve got my biases, admittedly. But no, cats seem to put a very heavy strain on the local bird population.
And you failed to do so.
More like “today someone left food out for me as usual so I didn’t hunt like I would if I were starving”.
70% of bird deaths are from fetal and stray cats, not just “outdoor” cats.
30% of bird deaths is still a lot of bird deaths. I would much prefer if cats were only responsible for 40 small animal extinctions rather than the 60 or so that they’ve caused so far
Not to mention a lot of those “strays” are just the offspring of someone’s unneutered outdoor cat.
Not how cats work. Nice job getting butthurt about a funny comic on the internet, though.
And just so you can be better informed in the future. Feral cats are the ones affecting the ecosystem. Outdoor house cats have a negligible influence on wildlife. Let your cat go outside sometimes.
And, just a guess, you should probably go outside sometimes too.
"The magnitude of mortality they cause in mainland areas remains speculative, with large-scale estimates based on non-systematic analyses and little consideration of scientific data. Here we conduct a systematic review and quantitatively estimate mortality caused by cats in the United States. We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality."
Downvoting doesn’t make you right and it doesn’t make your cats less miserable.
Thats exactly how cats work.
The comic is funny and cute, but dont get it twisted. The science is pretty firm on the destructive effects of invasive domestic cats.
"The magnitude of mortality they cause in mainland areas remains speculative, with large-scale estimates based on non-systematic analyses and little consideration of scientific data. Here we conduct a systematic review and quantitatively estimate mortality caused by cats in the United States. We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality."
Maybe don’t believe every sensationalized social media article that’s really just a barely disguised cat litter ad.
“The science is pretty firm” lmao
Im a professional ecologist. I have to listen to one of my colleagues rant about this topic on a nearly weekly basis, because its the focus of her grant work.
There are multiple groups of actual researchers in nearly every institute of biological study on the planet dedicated to spreading local awareness about wild cats.
There are multiple websites entirely dedicated to trying to inform people that the small apex predator from a far off desert doesnt actually belong wandering the wilds of your neighborhood.
There are a few actual native species of wild felines currently threatened due to feral domestic cats, that are having trouble becoming stable again because of folk like you.
The kind of person who doesnt really grok that owned cats are where feral cats come from, because your cat is fucking left and right in the bushes.
The kind of person who thinks their cat can win a fight with a car, or coyote, or wolf, or fox, or badger, or weasel, or any other predator in the wild that youre gleefully feeding it to.
The kind of person who is to blame for multiple feline diseases spreading and festering in local populations because you let your cat go pick them up from the source and spread them about willy nilly.
The kind of person who failed to pay attention in grade school science.
But please. Go on, tell me how the majority of science is a pop article about cat litter, flunkie.
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Holy shit you’re insufferable
I mean… I know Im not lying, and my comments are repeating the current standard. So either you retired 4 decades ago, or youre about as successful an ecologist as you are a conversationalist.
Letting your cat outdoors means its interacting with wild populations. That makes it succeptable to the same problems. An ecologist would know this.
A responsible pet owner doesnt let their pets roam outdoors, so thats a confirmed lie. But at least its not breeding, yes.
Wildcats are often refered to as apex predators in their native environments, because they dont live near all those predators. But piddling over the exact definition of apex doesnt really stop your cat becoming a coyote meal.
This basic concept is a grade school science lesson. If you dont know algebra, why would I assume you took calculus classes?
Some of us, sure. I dont think youre part of that collective group though.
For starters, Ive never met an ecologist who wants to feed their pets to the local wildlife, or who completely ignores the massive issue of feline disease spreading.
E: I just noticed your edit, on apex predation. Do you genuinely think that cats cannot be an ecological threat to small mammal, reptile, and amphibian populations just because they can be eaten by larger locals? By that logic, you are counting on your pet getting eaten. Thats… Thats insanely fucked up.
By that logic, you are counting on your pet getting eaten. Thats… Thats insanely fucked up.
And something an actual ecologist would have thought of, as you are essentially considering your pet cat as part of the food web, a high school level ecological concept.
“Never met an ecologist who wants to feed their pets to the local wildlife.”
“A responsible pet owner doesnt let their pets roam outdoors.”
Dude. You’re clearly not an ecologist, just some loudmouth repeating sensationalist, unfounded, unresearched pseudoscience. Just stop.
You can put anything you like in quotes, it’s not cited. As a “professional ecologist” you’d habitually cite your sources
If you’re a professional ecologist, then you should know full well that even if a cat is perfectly sedentary and kills nothing, and is neutered, they can still get and spread diseases, they can still get run over, and they can still be attacked and killed by other outdoor animals
If you don’t think outdoor cats, not just feral cats, are destroying the ecosystem, then you’re not only an ignorant ecologist, but a fucking dangerous one. God only knows what other goody-ass looney tunes theories you have. Not only are you misinformed, but you go so far as to defend and spread that misinformation. Jfc.
Please, present your credentials mr professional ecologist
Well some us have actual educations, with degrees and everything.
The argument is based on hearsay, personal experience, and this flimsy excuse for authority.
Troll, or insane person?
As a “professional ecologist” you should be aware of the concept of “landscape of fear”.
Non-consumptive effects have an equally strong (some argue an even stronger) effect on prey populations compared to consumptive effects.
Letting domesticated cats roam freely creates an unnaturally high predation pressure in the area and has more effects on the local wildlife than just killing it.
Nice job getting butthurt
Your other comment drivel makes the irony here quite palpable. It’s delicious.
How is it not?
"The magnitude of mortality they cause in mainland areas remains speculative, with large-scale estimates based on non-systematic analyses and little consideration of scientific data. Here we conduct a systematic review and quantitatively estimate mortality caused by cats in the United States. We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality."
You keep posting this without citing a source, which doesn’t help your argument. Please provide a source for this quote.
Loss, S., Will, T. & Marra, P. The impact of free-ranging domestic cats on wildlife of the United States. Nat Commun 4, 1396 (2013). https://doi.org/10.1038/ncomms2380
There. Do I have to do all you peoples’ thinking for you?
If you want anyone to take your argument seriously, then you do the opposite of thinking for others - you provide your sources so your audience can review and then think for themselves based on the data. Otherwise you’re just expecting people to take your word for it, which means you would be doing all of the thinking for the people who don’t question which, based on your comment, is not what you want.
Thank you for providing the source.
This study is about the immense magnitude of cat predation, and your takeaway is that we shouldn’t limit owned cat predation simply because un-owned cat predation is higher…
We estimate that cats in the contiguous United States annually kill between 1.3 and 4.0 billion birds (median=2.4 billion) (Fig. 1a), with ∼69% of this mortality caused by un-owned cats. The predation estimate for un-owned cats was higher primarily due to predation rates by this group averaging three times greater than rates for owned cats.
This study estimates that annual bird deaths by owned cat predation in the US is around a 750 million median figure, and you’re just fine with that?
If you quote an authority source you are obligated to cite it. It is not other’s job to backwards full-text-search a quote to determine who your were referencing. Pretty common academia stuff, but as you said you’re an ecologist and for sure know that, so you must have omitted it purposefully
It kind of sounds like this is part of a paper that is detailing seemingly large amounts of predation from cats of which the majority is attributable to un-owned cats which I gather you reckon means “outdoor” owned cats aren’t a big threat to wildlife populations since they aren’t responsible for the greatest amount of the total predation from cats overall.
But, without the context, the numbers cited sound instinctively like ‘big’ numbers so if the total magnitude of predation from cats is large and “owned” cats are responsible only for a fraction of it, their contribution could well be substantial nonetheless. Not knowing the scope or the details of the quoted paper it’s unclear if it goes in to what the estimated proportion is other than not the majority and its unclear how much predation can be tolerated by the populations upon which cats, both owned and unowned, prey.
For example maybe owned cats are responsible for 40% of the total predation by cats on local wildlife in an area with the remaining 60% being attributable to un-owned cats. This would make un-owned cats majority responsible for the predation yet you could reduce the total predation by 40% if owned cats were all kept indoors in that hypothetical. The actual numbers are likely different and could well be much more slanted between owned vs un-owned cats’ share of predation but if the estimates for the sustainable amount of predation certain populations can withstand are below the current total amount of predation then removing even a smaller fraction might be the difference between endangerment and extinction.
Exactly this, as Signtist posted above, about 31% of deaths are predicted to be from owned cats which is around 750 million birds per year. That’s horrific.
Cats, even owned ones, have cause extinctions
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The 1 to 4 billion animals killed by outdoor cats every year: X_X
Realistically, outdoor cats don’t travel much. They just hang out in their neighborhood, chill in their favorite spots, etc.
Cats have their territory and that’s where they spend their time, doing cat things. It’s just that an outdoor cat’s territory isn’t limited by walls.
There was a BBC documentary a few years ago where they gave GPS tracking collars to a bunch of cats in a neighbourhood and tracked where they went. Each of the cats had their own territory and favourite locations.
I think I watched this one and also a German documentary. It even showed that elderly cats roam way less then younger ones. Pretty interesting.
I loved that doc! It was fascinating seeing the vast differences in territory. I remember one cat who travelled something like a mile back and forth every day on a really narrow area. There was also a pair of cats that had worked out a little territory share amongst themselves, patrolling the same area but always 12 hours apart from each other.
I think you’re referring to this scientific experiment.
Murder local wildlife, cause property damage to neighbors, kill neighbors pets, spread disease. Roaming cats suck, and so do their entitled owners who think that everyone’s property belongs to their pet
While we’re at it, let’s get rid of birds that shit on everything, deer that eat our gardens, raccoons that get in our trash, skunks that dig up our grass …
They brought up how cats disturb the ecosystem and spread disease. You brought up how other animals can disturb people’s capital. These two are not equivalent.
Cats are natural in many parts of the world.
The Scottish wild cat for instance came to the UK across a land bridge 9000 years ago.
This thread is full of people that have probably never left America, regurgitating virtue signalling nonsense that they know very little about.
I understand that in some ecosystems that pet cats are devastating, but it’s just not true for most of the world.
There’s an enormous difference in the natural occurrence of native wild cats and feral or roaming domestic cats.
No one is arguing against native wild cats being around, but against artificially introducing a mesopredator into the ecosystem.
These people are fucking insane. Like they don’t go outside ever.
Can you believe an ANIMAL killed another ANIMAL? 😱😱😱😱
I have a pet parrot, a neighbors cat almost got through my window screen to attack my pet. That cat would not have survived, and then you can go “OMG A HUMAN KILLED A PEST” and we’ll see if you’re fair about it
You can leave that “S” out of “pest” and see how everyone would disagree with you.
Right… Idiot
I guess some cats love to piss on doors but I don’t think much if any property damage is being done by pet cats. I don’t think I have ever heard of a cat kiling a pet either.
Cats should be indoor only because they are murder hobos when it comes to wild birds and small animals.
Spreading diesease I can’t comment on. What diesease do cats kept as pets spread?
Roaming pet cats scratch screen doors, destroy door mats, piss on doors, shit in gardens, kill wildlife for sport, fight other cats, catch diseases from other cats (pet and feral), get pregnant, get hit by cars, get mauled by dogs. All of these things happen even in countries where cats are “native”.
Find/replace cat/human. You are a clown to even deign to compare the negative environmental impact of a fucking cat to what we have done to everything we touch as a species
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Exactly. Imagine if dog owners opened their doors at night and just let their pets fuck off to wherever? They would rightly be charged and have their pets taken away. But cat people for some reason do this exact thing and think it’s ok
My neighbors cats used to wreck my herb garden and such. One of them once tried to rip through my window screen to get inside my house and get my pet parrot. I would have made that cat disappear if he had gotten in, and his owner would have never known what happened, and that would be their own fault
Can you imagine if dog owners just opened the door at night, and let their dogs fuck off to do whatever? They’d rightly be charged and have their pets taken away
You got plenty of dogs owners leaving their pets with small children.
And those children getting mauled to death while the owner claims they would never do something since they are such a friendly family pet.
It’s entitled of YOU too think that the land, plants, wildlife, and ecology these creatures have lived off of for millennia belong to you. We all share a planet, it’s not up to humans to be the arbiters of who can have what and how much and at what time etc etc .
Cats may not be sapient animals, but they are sentient.
No, sorry. We’ve unintentionally thrown so much of the world off balance by importing creatures that were never in certain places, that we must bear responsibility to bring things back to the balance they were at before we got there, particularly now that we know better.
If that’s not possible, we’ll do our best to get there. Where are the dodos, buddy? Keep your stupid cats indoors, and stop bothering the local ecosystem more than we already have.
we must bear responsibility to bring things back to the balance they were at before we got there
The idea that nature was in some sort of balance before humans came along is a common misconception. Most ecosystems are dynamic, and change over time. What we are doing is accelerating that change to a dangerous level.
This might seem like an academic distinction, but many conservationists have caused more harm than good by trying to ‘freeze’ ecosystems at a state that existed at some fixed point in the past. I believe it was George Monbiot who pointed out that the margins of many British roads had higher plant and insect diversity than many ‘protected’ areas.
Or, see the wildfires in North America, caused largely by prevention of natural wildfires, resulting in a century of surplus of dead organic matter and primed with climate change-induced drought.
Friend, cool it with the pedagogy. If one understands the idea of ecosystems at multiple scales, it follows implicitly that one understands the systems are inherently dynamic.
The point still stands: we’ve got to understand the environs we’ve rapidly destabilized and do something to limit our negative influence. Ergo: keeping stupid cats indoors helps the stressed systems by reducing the load caused by a bored apex predator.
Oops I forgot my point in saying all that, which was that if cats have become naturalised to your local ecosystem, then removing them could make things worse. (And by the way, cats are not apex predators.)
By the way, actually, an apex is also known as the summit or peak of a curve, which domestic cats can generally be considered as they are rarely (though not never) predated upon. Wasn’t clear that you understood that, but now you do!
Blah blah blah, legally your cat is your PROPERTY. And if your pet becomes my pest on MY property, it will be dealt with as such. I don’t live in the wild, I live in my home on my property, keep your shit bag cat off of mine.
Working in the office vs working from home.
Cat owners who let their cats roam are irresponsible and entitled
That is like saying all dogs should always be leashed and muzzled when outside.
Yeah, one wonders how they survived until we came along.
Cats survived before us by hunting small mammals and small birds, and they are very effective at getting fed.
The motivation at the core of naming owners of outdoor cats as irresponsible is a sharp decline in songbird populations in direct proportion to the increase in outdoor cat population.
Cats survived before us by hunting small mammals and small birds, and they are very effective at getting fed.
And, conversely, the prey evolved to avoid cats. So it is only a problem if you take cats to a place that historically did not have them. In fact, removing a predator from an ecosystem it used to keep under check can be just as devastating as introducing a foreign species.
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Literally nowhere? What absolute bollocks.
Cats moved across a land bridge to the UK over 9000 years ago, long before the Romans had anything to do with it.
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We should consider the centuries of persecution by humans and the severe habit loss.
As you yourself said, cats have been living across most of Africa, Asia and Europe for over a thousand years. So unless you are talking about Australia, the Americas, or a few corners of the old world, cats are either native or naturalised enough that they are now a part of the ecosystem.
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It depends on the ecosystem. Pollution famously caused certain moths to shift from being mostly light-coloured to mostly dark-coloured in a matter of years. The removal and reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone caused observable changes in prey behaviour within a decade or so. Of course longer-lived species like trees take much longer to adapt, but we’re talking about birds, geckos and rodents here.
Edit: Also, most geckos, birds and rodents are r-strategists, meaning they are limited more by food than by predation.
The absolute brain-dead mentality of the people who will just downvote anything that doesn’t fit their predetermined conclusion.
There’s no evidence of this. Pet cats mostly take weakened or frail prey.
Another middle school drop out
Brilliant comment!
This thread is for debate. No one cares that you disagree with me personally unless you actually have a point to make.
Gonna need to speak with an adult, it feels weird dunking on someone who hasnt taken a high school biology class
Songbirds should die
Wheres your parent? This is an adult conversation
The danger isn’t to the cats, it’s to everything else. Ecologically speaking, cats are an invasive apex predator. They absolutely wreak havoc on local bird populations.
Cats aren’t apex predators. But yes, they can be quite damaging in araes where they are invasive.
Not in the wild, but in a suburban neighborhood they are. Apex is relative to what else is out there.
They are still mesopredators. A big bird of prey, a coyote, or a fox wouldn’t mind going for a cat.
But it’s not even relevant for the discussion whether they are apex predators or not. They are efficient predators and the artificial high number of individuals is harmful for the ecosystem.
You’re uninformed. Cats co-evolved with humans to serve a job (pest control, in exchange for safety and the occasional bit of food). There have only been fully indoor cats for a few hundred years. Not all cats have to have a job, but some WANT one, just like dogs. We should let them.
My cat is angry with me if I don’t let him spend at least 12 hours a day roaming and catching bugs and mice. He has neighbor cat friends that he goes to see. Why would I deprive him of that?
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Yes, as we all know cats never went outside before they were domesticated by humans…
You think cats could sail? Then youre definitely stupid enough to let it roam outdoors
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mmmmmega akshully vibes
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after finding it quite surprising that folks here feel so strongly about forcing such a depressing life on highly independent creatures, I decided to look for the evidence myself.
sure enough, it’s not as clear as you all think. one of the problems with the research is that it is incorrectly applied to all environments without merit. and the biggest issue of all is that most of the problem is caused by feral cats.
so no, your absolute position that all cats must be indoors only is not fully supported by evidence. furthermore it is alarming how quick people are to impose their beliefs on other creatures with only a small amount of reason.
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owning pets isn’t about maximizing environmental benefits. your own existence is a much larger problem for that but no one is telling you to live your entire life in a boring box because we have too many humans. this hill is not important enough to warrant all you folks dying on it.
Tbf right or wrong the way you come across makes you sound like a dick. Though it’s probably the autism
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“Outdoor domestic cats are a recognized threat to global biodiversity. Cats have contributed to the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals, and reptiles in the wild”
You shouldn’t be proud of contributing to the extinction of animals…
Can you link that quote? Curious what the source is?
Thank you
No problem o7
Dude the trash animals are getting killed, oh noooooooo.
Think of the stupid rats,mice,lizards and birds! Oh no! The worst problem we’re facing right now!
Does your mom know youre on her computer right now?
Your cat is your property. Keep it in your property. If your pet becomes my pest, it will be dealt with as such. I once had a neighbor’s cat almost rip through my window screen to get inside and go after my pet parrot. If the cat had made it inside, he would not have made it out alive.
Then I could return it’s corpse to you, and you can tell me all about how they evolved alongside humans, and how that means you’re entitled to let your pet fuck up my yard, home and pets
Fantasizing about killing pets is a strong indicator of psychopathy.
Yet you’re ok with my pet being killed
If your pet bird is being attacked by a cat, by all means, do what you have to. Daydreaming about murdering cats because they’re scratching at your window is some sick shit, though.
In the United States.
Wherever there’s birds, it’s irresponsible to let cats out. NZ in particular, it’s a damn massacre out there.
In the UK, the RSPB determines no negative impacts on bird populations. And the ecosystem is irrecoverably damaged from 3000 years of human impact on a relatively small island. Unlike new colonies like NZ, USA etc.
The UK is losing its wildcat population because of british arrogance about cats.
Youre also bringing in all your local predators into human settlements with the free food that cats become. Foxes love outdoor cats, theyre easy meals. You know what else loves cats? Tires. Smears a cat like jam.
But whats another destroyed ecosystem to the brits? Yall love ruining ecosystems, may as well fill your own backyard with piss.
The wildcats are in Northern Scotland. I’d be OK with the Scots banning outdoor cats.
Foxes like bins, they don’t fight back.
I’ve seen maybe 1 domestic cat hit by a car, I’ve seen hundreds of hedgehogs, foxes, badgers and deer. That’s not an outdoor cat problem.
It’s easy to sit on a moral high horse about a country you don’t really know anything about. We didn’t come to this land 300 years ago. The concept of an intact ecosystem vanished about 1000 years ago. It is a completely different island. The best we can do is keep the last of our wild species ticking over.
Unlike the Americans, who exploited and continue to exploit one of the most beautiful lands in the world, when they should have known better.
The wildcats are now surviving in northern scotland. That was not their original range.
Your lot thought a serial killer was on a cat mutilation spree, for 4 years, only to find out it was a fox that wasnt hiding its kills. So… No, sorry, you dont actually seem to know the country you live in very well. Foxes eat cats like candy, they just prefer to hide while they eat.
But Im glad cat deaths only count when you see them, Im sure you cover your eyes often.
“Unlike the americans.” Lol, ok bud. Because I know from actual formerly british researchers that you take care of your ecosystem as well as well as you take care of your relationship with the mainland.
Okie doke. You’re clearly very angry about cats, so much so you managed to miss every point I made, good job.
What is different in other places?
In countries where cats are native, they have significantly less impact on wildlife, or at the very least form a part of an ecosystem rather than being a manual introduction (admittedly one complication here is cat populations grouping up in suburban areas). As for safety for the cats, in their native countries they don’t have any serious predators to harm them.
I don’t know if Finland is considered native for cats but it’s against the law to let cats roam freely because there’s a very real risk of them getting injured, disease or dying. Not just from predators but from humans and cars and so on. A dead cat on the side of the road is a too common of a sight. I think the effect on wildlife is seen as secondary and the welfare of the cat is the foremost reason for it.
British cats go to cat school as soon as their eyes open so we have very smart cats that can navigate roads.
Sounds like it since nobody seems to be concerned about the cats, just birds.
I live in the UK where there are an estimated 10.8 million cats and have literally never seen “a dead cat on the side of the road”. I appreciate that it is a real risk and that it does happen, but you’re either blowing things out of proportion or there is something weird going on with Finnish cats and or Finnish drivers.
Found this
230,000 CATS IN THE UK ARE RUN OVER EVERY YEAR!
Statistically only 25% of road traffic accidents involving cats are fatal, so the chances are good the cat can survive with urgent care - instead of being left to suffer a painful death.
https://www.cats.org.uk/teignbridge/news/animal-road-accident-awareness-day
230,000÷10,800,000÷4x100%≈0.5%
If I had to personally take that risk or stay in the house for the rest of my life. I’d choose freedom every time.
What’s really more selfish and entitled? Imprisoning an animal for life in return for an increased 0.5% of safety or letting it makes its own choice?
They’re saying that only people from the United States believe that outdoor cats are a net negative.
That’s not true. In Finland it’s actually against the law because it’s considered irresponsible animal ownership.
USA isn’t the only place where there’s reason to fear the cat gets hurt, disease or could die.
I’m in total agreement just to be clear
Ah alright. It just felt so weird seeing all the comments about USA being different, so my mind got all jumbled.
I thought it was the same everywhere more or less as well.
That’s not what I’m saying. Not only the USA. Other places where domestic cats are very new, like USA, NZ, etc also probably shouldn’t do outdoor cats.
I love that the outdoor cat is missing an eye. A for accuracy.
I’m surprised that didn’t rustle much jimmies.
I cannot imagine having an indoor/outdoor cat. I’d worry so much about them while they were away. And if they just disappeared and didn’t return…I don’t know how I could stand it.
We have 3 indoor-only cats. Obviously I’m pretty attached to them.
the most i’ve ever done is let my first cat go on the deck on a leash and even then i panicked the whole time. one time she got out of the slider at night and i couldn’t handle it thankfully she came back like an hour or so later
I really understand that fear, and I do experience that with my outdoor cats. However cats tend to stick to their established territory and patterns and at least for mine, never go far and barely ever out of sight. In the summer being outdoor cats pretty much just means they sleep all day curled up in the garden.
Yeah, I can’t do it. We have fox around, and plenty of community cats (one evening, I walked down the ravine looking for our dog after he ran off, and I shined my flashlight upward to see about 6 pairs of eyes staring at me). We had a cat get some sort of blood borne disease, we think she got it from a tick that was in the house when we moved in (it’s our only theory, we have no idea what actually happened), and she spent a few days in the animal hospital, and barely survived. (It also cost several thousand dollars.) Unfortunately she passed away from multiple medical issues a few years later. :(
(We adopted another cat after she passed - we’ve never had more than 3 at once.)
Sorry to hear about your cat! I’m assuming you’re in the states, and I’d agree that I don’t think I’d let a cat outside there. One extra bit of support in the UK is that it’s pretty unheard of to not routinely vaccinate your cats to protect against random diseases, but of course it can’t cover everything.
I am. We always vaccinate our cats as well, and since that incident we give them regular flea and tick preventatives (well, two of them for the flea and tick - the third one is way too skittish to let us do that). In our case, there’s always a risk the dog brings something in, too, so it’s good to do.
Outdoor cats in the UK are driving your native wildcats extinct. Even if we ignore that the cat population is bringing foxes and badgers into human settlements because they make easy free meals.
You arent immune to having invasive species. In fact the british are pretty directly responsible for a lot of invasive species problems globally, so I would think yall would grasp the concept by now.
Wildcat extinction is an extremely specific issue. Wildcats only exist in Scotland now, driven to near extinction mostly by humans, not mating with other cats. This happened literally hundreds of years ago and has practically nothing to do with house cats. Now interbreeding is an issue for the preservation of the small number of wildcats left in Scotland. It’s sad but hardly a concern for keeping cats in most areas of the UK.
Secondly, I do ignore that cats are ‘bringing in foxes and badgers’. Can you present a source on this? I couldn’t find anything.
Sure, hand wave an extinction because its inconvenient.
Do you actually need me to google uk cat death counts for you? Or do you think predators entering human settlements is normal?
Did you guys not recently have a “serial cat murderer” who was just a fox leaving its kills in public places? Do you think thats a normal thing?
How am I hand waving it? I’m stating an obvious truth. What impact on wildcats do you expect to come from cats in Cornwall, Ipswich, or Manchester?
I think you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Yes, I would like you to google cat death counts and show me any evidence for what you’re saying. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to find that cats sometimes get killed by other animals, but to suggest that it’s a significant cause of death or that they’re the reason that foxes are coming to ‘human settlements’ is complete nonsense. You make it sound like packs of badgers roam the streets of London at night.
Foxes in cities are very normal. They’re basically the UK’s raccoon. They scavenge things, including the bodies of cats hit by cars.
Sometimes, you gotta do what’s best for your cat. We have one that just couldn’t handle being indoors full-time. We put a Tractive GPS tracker on his collar. It gives peace of mind and if anything happens, at least we’ll know when to find him. He’s living his best cat life.
Never seen any cat that chose to stay inside even 50% of the time when given a choice. I’d rather they enjoy their life than make me feel better be cause they’re penned up all the time.
we have an indoor cat. I was worried about it so started taking it outside. It would sprint back inside.
So then I took it out and closed the door. It clawed at the door.
I picked her up and moved her off the deck. She bolted under the deck and I had to take up one of the boards to get her out and she ran back inside faster than ever.
My cats come and go as they please, one spends about 90% of her time indoors, the other mostly nights, but is gone during daytime. I usually see her when I walk my dog, she’ll creep up from behind a bush and finish the walk with us, come in for a snack and then be gone again.
Far better to die young under a car tire, bleeding out slowly and painfully alone on the asphalt. Totally agree, way better than living your entire lifespan.
… in a gilded prison, never really have lived a single day in their entire lives.
Yeah, I’d take my chances with the tire.
If your house is a gilded prison to your pets, youre a shit pet owner and you shouldnt own any animal of any kind.
Like sorry bud, you can give a small mammal a fulfilling life inside your house pretty fuckin easy. Harness training a cat is so straight forward, too, so its not even a life permanently indoors.
I get youre probably so fuckin lazy that you would prefer your pet gets its guts ripped out and dies slow in the worst pain of its life. But any normal adult capable of washing their ass can do better than you, so maybe you leave the big boy responsibilities to better people.
A stranger outdoor cat just walked with me for a few blocks on my way home from a dinner party. It was fun to have a five minute feline friend. It’s sad to know they will very likely die long before my indoor cat of a similar age.
I dunno, sometimes my indoor cats step into the liminal dimension just to make me panic
Cat in the wall eh? Okay, now you’re talking my language!
Actually managed that once. Basement was half finished by the previous owners but left a hole for the well window. The result was a gap between the window and the drywall. Cat wanted to look out the window and ended up falling onto the insulation. He cried for a while until we figured out where he was, and when we grabbed a ladder to mount a rescue he hauled his own happy ass out unassisted. Same cat also managed to find a way ABOVE the ceiling of a basement closet.
You mean like that science fiction book: “The Cat Who Walks Through Walls”
Where the cat doesn’t understand that it should be impossible.
Same. Hearing the pitter patter of their little feet casting Plane Shift when I shake the treat box never gets old though
my sister’s cat ended up chilling in the walls of our basement, and my brothers kitten discovered a hole she could fit thru between the kitchen counters. they are sneaky
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Indoor cats still move a lot around the house, destroying stuff.
We have 3 indoor/outdoor cats because we’ve just always had indoor/outdoor cats and I never really thought about it.
Being on more cat-related Reddit and Lemmy communities, I’ve seen more and more of the arguments for keeping cats as indoor-only, and it’s been making me think more about how to care for cats we adopt.
From what I’ve seen of the discussions, a lot of them seem to center around urban areas and towns, where there’s a high population density. Some arguments also seem to be based off the assumption that the pets aren’t spayed or neutered.
We live in the middle of nowhere and all our cats are fixed as soon as possible (we’ve had kittens sometimes and they stay inside until then).
Is there different logic for this situation, or is it the same advice to always keep them indoors?
I’m genuinely asking.
Obviously there’s the safety aspect of keeping them indoors, they usually live longer. Aside from that, they’re also extremely efficient killing machines. The damage outside cats do to native animal populations is huge.
Oh no guys the pandas went extinct because we let our cats out.
Hate when that happens
I suspect the middle of nowhere might be worse given that the wilife there might not see a lot of cats normally and could have more vulnerable populations. Probably depends where you live, but if it has rare wildlife you don’t see much elsewhere your kitty is possibly bad news for them. Also depending on where you live the wildlife can be dangerous for tje cat too. Eagles and snakes are a worry.
I think the only snakes we have are garter snakes, and the biggest birds are vultures.
Almost certainly not true, but you can verify here: https://mol.org/regions/
Unless you live in the native original range for cats, and your local region has zero automobiles, and you have no issue paying vet bills for random illness or parasite infections, then sure. Its probably not that big a risk to let your cat out unsupervised.
Brits are very arrogantly incorrect about their cat care. They are driving local wildcats extinct, and feeding their pets to local foxes, badgers, and car wheels.
You can still supplement outdoor time for your cat tho. Harness/leash training isnt too difficult, just go in areas you dont expect dog walkers. And you can also build catios, outdoor spaces that are fenced in.
They are driving local wildcats extinct, and feeding their pets to local foxes, badgers, and car wheels.
Still better than locking them in a cage and never letting them out
Yo I get youre a shit pet owner, but for those of us who dont need mommy to wipe, giving a pet a fulfilling life is pretty easy.
Harness training a cat is not hard to people who can be trusted to dress themselves, for example. Sorry to hear you struggle with both.
If you are in the US or Canada, you should know that about half the diet if coyotes is house cats
I think we have coyotes around, but I can only remember 1 or 2 cats disappearing, and I assumed it was because they were old and didn’t want to die inside.
The “catio” idea people have been bringing up seems like it’s worth a try, but we need to get our deck repaired for that I think.
If you have a big enough space and want to make a sun room for human use, Ive seen lots of sun room modifications that make little side slots for cat lounging and climbing.
And feeders for local wildlife nearby give them free reality tv
Cats are actually in more danger on quiet roads than busy ones. Busy roads teach them that cars will always be there and they avoid them. Quiet roads with infrequent cars they don’t expect them so they get used to crossing without looking or sunning themselves there in the summer.
That is a really good point I’ve never thought of or seen mentioned before on these type of threads.!
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Three factors to consider:-
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Are these cats native (or naturalised) to your local ecosystem? If wherever you live has had cats for a hundred years or so, the local wildlife would have adapted to them. Otherwise, cats can damage the local ecosystem.
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Do you rely on the cats to suppress vermin (rats, squirrels, small birds, etc.)? Even if your cats aren’t actively killing them, their mere ‘patrolling’ can drive these pests away. But if you keep them indoors, you lose this protection.
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Are there any local predators that are particularly good at catching cats?
If your answers are yes, yes and no, then let your cats out. If they are no, no and yes, keep them in as far as possible.
I’m not really sure how long housecats have been around in this area. I think historically there were a lot of farms here (in the 1800s) so they may have had cats, but I don’t have historical data.
We didn’t get cats to hunt down mice, but it’s pretty rare that we see them, and it’s an old farmhouse, so maybe we’re relying on their hunting implicitly? I’ve occasionally seen them catch and eat mice around the yard, and sometimes they bring one to the door to show off.
There are supposedly coyotes around, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one here, and we’ve only ever had cats just disappear a couple times, and they were already 17-19. The bigger danger seems to be other outdoor cats (not sure if they’re feral or not) that one of ours occasionally fights with, but the vet knows they go outdoors, and they’re up-to-date on all their shots.
Should be fine then.
but it’s pretty rare that we see them, and it’s an old farmhouse, so maybe we’re relying on their hunting implicitly?
The presence of your cats is probably keeping the mice away.
The bigger danger seems to be other outdoor cats
Cats have their territories and defend them aggressively. Make sure your cats are spayed, but from what I’ve seen even this doesn’t reduce aggression in females.
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Outdoor cats are the number one killer of native species. They have contributed to the extinction of numerous species. Not to mention there are coyotes, cougars, bears, and hawks that can harm or even kill your cat. Outdoor cats also are a vector for diseases and parasites that can seriously harm them, or humans.
Pets should be kept indoors, for their safety, for the safety of the environment, and for your safety.
Afaik, the best is to give them enough space but it should be enclosed. They pose a threat to wildlife to some extent, and some of the wildlife can harm them, besides an obvious possibility of being traumatised or lost.
There’s also people with barns who maintain a constantly churning population of cats to keep rodent population down.
Not all cats are killing machines but with 3, chances are at least one of them is. On the other hand, an outdoor life is probably much more fulfilling for a cat.
At a minimum, make sure they have bells around their collar so it warns the local wildlife.
Cats can learn to move without jingling the bells and they learn that fast.
The bell is annoying the shit out of them, get a reflective/high-visibility collar.
You know, I actually thought about trying to make a product that would have a camera on the cats head and beep aggressively the moment it would detect a bird.
It’s obviously insane though
There’s one theory that outdoor cats could be what allows the avian flu to become transmissible to humans which would cause a worldwide pandemic comparable to the black plague in terms of death toll. So there’s that.
If you want to give your kitty companion the best shot at a long comfortable life, keep them indoors, it’s as simple as that.
Leads exist, and so do catios and window boxes if you’re lucky enough to have the space, they can still enjoy the sunshine and fresh air without risk of them getting run over, attacked by another animal/person, getting injured otherwise. I know I just couldn’t bear it if my baby was outside all on her own and got hurt…My cats are indoors because I lived next to a cat hater and in a busy street when I got them. Back then I would let them outside on a leash. During the day they were too scared, but they loved investigating the garden in the evening.
Now I live at a calmer street and have a small walled garden. They love going outside during the day now without a leash. I always stay with them and if they attempt to jump the wall they have to go inside immediately.
My sisters cats are outdoor cats. They are a lot less affectionate than my cats. My cats greet me when I get home, they like to lay on my lap and they love getting pet. My sisters cats only show up when they’re hungry or when the weather is too bad and will scratch if you pet them longer than 2 seconds.
I’m guessing your American? If you try finding a rescue cat for indoors they won’t let you have one. Most cats in the UK and any given by charities are outdoor cats.
So everyone insisting on one of the other is being very… Annoyingly ignorant!
As an American, I have never seen an animal shelter adoption contract that didn’t have a clause about never letting the cat outside. Obviously there are exceptions for leashes and catios, but you get the idea
It’s the opposite in the UK where the default is outdoor. So you end up with these very passionate online debates between outdoor vs indoor which are ore due to cultural & geographical differences between countries than any real science.
So it’s akin to a religious war.
Except one side is backed up with science, studies, and facts, the other is backed up by… Tradition.
Which is which? Because I’ve seen some show science for keeping cats indoors but I’ve shared two studies based in the UK that show cats are better outdoors. Like I say it’s based on geography too. As some people have pointed out cats have been a wild species in the UK for millenia. So them being outdoors here isn’t an issue.
Stop being a dick.
You can’t compare the impact of actual native wild cats with the impact of domestic cats. It’s such a huge difference in numbers.
As you said, some areas have wild cats and the ecosystem is tuned to that. But even in those areas the comparable extremely high numbers of additional predators (domesticated cats) is damaging to the wildlife.The RSPB says outdoor cats aren’t a problem and I linked to a study done by Bristol University in another comment that states they aren’t a problem.
Feel free to fuck off and read them and stop talking like your rules are universal across the globe.
Yeah, and it is not the side that you think it is.
Yeah I only know this viewpoint from posters in the US. In Europe I only know the prevailing notion that keeping cats indoors is cruel and they should be outside. Exceptions for large cities ofc but I only know social pressure to get cats out, not keep them in.
I guess Finland is an exception. Here you’re not supposed to let cats roam free because they could get hurt or die and it would be irresponsible pet ownership. Some still do it ofc.
That’s not true. I have 2 rescue cats currently indoor only and have had more previously. There’s a few rescues I can think of that look for outdoor homes, and a few who are strictly indoor, but most are quite open minded.
I’m not saying they don’t exist. They’re just more rare and the default is “outdoor”. I’ve been looking into getting an indoor cat for my flat but couldn’t find a single one in Manchester.
I’m probably going to buy a plant instead. :(
Try these guys, they’re strictly indoor and many of their cats are Birmingham which is close - https://www.strawberrypersianpedigreecatrescue.co.uk/adoption/
Cats protection is either though and they’re everywhere.
Yeah, cats are safer if you never let them go outside, sure.
So are humans. But would you want to live like that?
We don’t let small children cross the street by themselves. That’s because kids have no concept of what a street is, or how dangerous it is. Same for cats, but add in plenty of predators and diseases. Outdoor cats have a much shorter life expectancy than indoor cats.
I think the bigger thing than them potentially getting hurt is the fact that they will hunt and decimate local fauna
It can be both
We don’t let small children cross the street by themselves. That’s because kids have no concept of what a street is, or how dangerous it is.
No, that’s because certain societies are okay with roads being dangerous, and would rather lock their children inside than regulate vehicles.
(Unless by small children you mean babies, then agreed.)
But do they actually get to live though?
Gilded cage and all that.
Yep, that’s my philosophy. Never had a kid age past ten, but they get to live such full lives wandering around the neighborhood until they get run over
I do live like that.
Importantly, while cats are safer indoors, vulnerable wildlife is much safer when cats are indoors.
You running in forests, hunting for food with bare hands, fighting with bears for survival?
And should dogs be let out to roam free too?
That’s my thought exactly. But they have the mind of a child, so there has to be a middle ground especially if living in a town or busy street. No idea what that could be. If only cats would stay inside the yard, or a cat park like dogs lol.
But keeping them indoors 100% of the time? Total wrong end of the spectrum, borderline abuse.
Lmao humans are able to look at a car and think “I’m not gonna dart in front of that”
This is, I think, the most passionate controversy I’ve seen on Lemmy.
All cats should be indoor cats
Agreed. All the strays are heartbreaking, they deserve homes!
Accordingly to my cat (and apparently Sarah Andersen’s), this is a reliable way to give a stray a new home:
I’m not too eager to trust her biased sampling though.[Serious now, we should be more active on that. Also to discourage people from letting cats to “take a walk” unsupervised.]
Can confirm. Cats always choose you, but sometimes it’s more forcefully. This big boy busted through an open window, used the liter box, and proclaimed himself king.
Mine was hiding herself in my garage. At least the younger one, Siegfrieda; our old lady Kika was adopted almost like you would adopt a dog, but from a home owner instead of a pet shop. (Her mum’s owner took a bit too long to spay her cat.)
Depends on the country.
Depends on if you live on a farm or not*
It’s not like European outdoor cats don’t murder wildlife and get killed
No no, the whole world is suburban North America.
I don’t get what this comment is about. Is suburban North America especially dangerous for cats?
I don’t get what this comment is about. Is suburban North America especially dangerous for cats?
I suspect that they are meaning that suburban Americans are known for being very opinionated, judgemental, and overly concerned with what others do with their lives.
However, for your question, if on the peripheries, yes. There is danger to cats from cars but also coyotes, raccoons, and native big cats (bobcats, lynx, and cougars, as well as humans (was terrified for my cat when I lived in a place where serial cat mutilations started taking place). I grew up with outdoor cats but generally have preferred to keep them inside, unless it was not possible (people who think that it’s a case of ignoring a “whiny” cat have obviously never experienced the craftiness and terrorism employed by a feline that grew up semi-feral in the woods).
My reasoning is very similar to you Finns. I distinctly remember, as a child, finding one of my semi-feral cat friends frozen to death next to a pond in the forest during a particularly cold winter. As a child, we also lost near a dozen cats over the years to wildlife and cat haters in cars intentionally hitting them. That’s just too much.
I want my cats to live as long and happy a life as possible so, as an adult, when we adopted kittens, we kept them inside. They have windows, toys, and companionship that keeps them from feeling the need to be outdoors.
It is not their habitat, from experience I have had many cats, and in my opinion it is better to be able to leave them free so that they can go in and out without going where it needs to be clean.
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